There is a patriarchal order, of which if and when you become a God you would be part of. But (and it’s a big but too) that has nothing to do with God’s authority over you as a creation of his.Finally getting around to following up on this. You seem to keep bringing the convo back to God's authority over me; and I keep trying to bring the convo back to God's derived authority--something He didn't inherently have.
Eternal does not always mean the same thing in the scriptures. Eternal is one of God’s names so an eternal covenant (Like Moses’ covenant) was with God, not supposed to be forever...
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. [This one's for Tantiboh, too, based on his earlier invite to "explore common ground" as to how Joe redefined terms]. Joseph redefined "damnation" as being all "damned up"--as stoppage, not as eternal hell fire. The problem is that you've never read the Bible and the Book of Mormon with this "new" def of "eternal" or "damnation." (Just try it). The prob is that the same "adjective" (be it eternal, everlasting, etc.) is applied to heaven just like hell. If hell can be stopped; if spirit prison is just a lousy vacation at a scumbag motel; then that doesn't say much positive about the longevity of heaven, now does it [Because the same exact qualifiers used to describe hell in the BoM & the Bible are used to describe heaven].
So much for "perspective." [What? You can't even read the Bible or BoM w/out a JoeSmith decoder ring to find out what "plain" meanings have been changed from the BoM. I'll I can say is how utterly misleading that is to someone reading the BoM...to not have the D&C passage where Joe redefines "damnation" so that they could realize that "No, the BoM, REALLY IS different than the Bible."]
Me: So, simply put, an orginal god or a council of gods authorized the progression of others to join them as either a "greater council" or gods, or to progress from man to god. [Either way, it was "authorized"]
You: Now you are going off the path here. God the father authorized it. This is his universe; he needs no permission from anyone....God the Father is self-contained.
Let me introduce some other quotes (which also) has "educated" me on what LDS believe:
“The doctrine of a plurality of Gods is prominent in the Bible. The heads of the Gods appointed our God for us...you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves…the same as all Gods have done before you…” Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 370-372, 346
Question: Doesn't your Heavenly Father, having rec'd an "appointment" as God, mean that He rec'd His authority from these "plurality of Gods?"
“We shall go back to our Father and God, who is connected with one who is still farther back; and this Father is connected with one still farther back, and so on.” Heber C. Kimball, JoD, vol. 5, p. 19
This further emphasizes my previous "so on" comment. How is this quote above distinct from my "computer language" comment about infinite regression of gods?
“our God is a natural man...where did he get his knowledge from? From his father, just as we get our knowledge from our earthly parents (JoD, vol. 8, p. 211)
Doesn't LDS directly tie "knowledge" and "authority?" Doesn't this tell about a divine generation upon generation of both knowledge & authority?
“our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; ‘He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another.” Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 132
Yet another "so on" comment similar to my previous comment.
Orson Pratt taught that “The Gods who dwell in heaven…were once in a fallen state….” The Seer p. 23 [whereas Mormon 9:19; Moroni 8:18; Mormon 9:9-11 all say unchangeable]
“We believe in a God who is Himself progressive...whose perfection consists in eternal advancement...a Being who has attained His exalted state” (A Study of the Articles of Faith, pp. 430, 1952 James Talmage
There we have it. If you have a "fallen being" God...one who progressed and will advance eternally, as Talmage wrote; obviously, the "un-advanced"--the "lower degree progressives" at one point held less authority. And, I would point out, "fallen beings" could not have had much authority at all--certainly not divine authority.
All of this de fact proves a line of authority extending beyond your God.
Finally getting around to following up on this. You seem to keep bringing the convo back to God's authority over me; and I keep trying to bring the convo back to God's derived authority--something He didn't inherently have.
Are we talking about Mormon beliefs here, or yours?
If we are talking about your beliefs, then you are right, if we are talking about Mormon beliefs here, then I am.
I Said:
Eternal does not always mean the same thing in the scriptures. Eternal is one of God’s names so an eternal covenant (Like Moses’ covenant) was with God, not supposed to be forever... And a lot more… You said:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. [This one's for Tantiboh, too, based on his earlier invite to "explore common ground" as to how Joe redefined terms]. Joseph redefined "damnation" as being all "damned up"--as stoppage, not as eternal hell fire. The problem is that you've never read the Bible and the Book of Mormon with this "new" def of "eternal" or "damnation." (Just try it). The prob is that the same "adjective" (be it eternal, everlasting, etc.) is applied to heaven just like hell. If hell can be stopped; if spirit prison is just a lousy vacation at a scumbag motel; then that doesn't say much positive about the longevity of heaven, now does it [Because the same exact qualifiers used to describe hell in the BoM & the Bible are used to describe heaven]. In your post you invited me to set you straight I must say you are not very teachable here, Grin, not that I expected better.
Please show where you think the BOM would be “Messed up” by reading dammed as stopped in your eternal progression. I am good, but not a mind reader. The YEAH, yeah,
yeah really does not help your argument, not that you have made any at this point.
So much for "perspective." [What? You can't even read the Bible or BoM w/out a JoeSmith decoder ring to find out what "plain" meanings have been changed from the BoM. I'll I can say is how utterly misleading that is to someone reading the BoM...to not have the D&C passage where Joe redefines "damnation" so that they could realize that "No, the BoM, REALLY IS different than the Bible."]
It’s not a “Joseph Smith” decoder ring, it’s the Holy Ghost.
Me: So, simply put, an orginal god or a council of gods authorized the progression of others to join them as either a "greater council" or gods, or to progress from man to god. [Either way, it was "authorized"]
You: Now you are going off the path here. God the father authorized it. This is his universe; he needs no permission from anyone....God the Father is self-contained.
Let me introduce some other quotes (which also) has "educated" me on what LDS believe:
“The doctrine of a plurality of Gods is prominent in the Bible. The heads of the Gods appointed our God for us...you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves…the same as all Gods have done before you…” Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 370-372, 346
Yes, as I explained to you , except you didn’t read, God the Father appointed Jesus Christ to be the God of this world. You are so busy trying to tell me what I believe you cannot her me tell you what I believe.
Question: Doesn't your Heavenly Father, having rec'd an "appointment" as God, mean that He rec'd His authority from these "plurality of Gods?"
No, It means you did not listen to what I said, um read what I wrote
“We shall go back to our Father and God, who is connected with one who is still farther back; and this Father is connected with one still farther back, and so on.” Heber C. Kimball, JoD, vol. 5, p. 19
Yes, there is a patriarchal order to the family we are in, however, it has nothing to do with authority, that is a religion you are creating yourself, it is not a belief of mine nor of any Mormons I know.
This further emphasizes my previous "so on" comment. How is this quote above distinct from my "computer language" comment about infinite regression of gods? “our God is a natural man...where did he get his knowledge from? From his father, just as we get our knowledge from our earthly parents (JoD, vol. 8, p. 211)
Knowledge comes from learning as anyone can tell you.
Doesn't LDS directly tie "knowledge" and "authority?" Doesn't this tell about a divine generation upon generation of both knowledge & authority?
No we don’t Satan has knowledge, but no authority
“our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; ‘He was begotten by a still more ancient Father; and so on from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another.” Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 132
Yep, the patriarchal order, so does your Dad get his authority from your great grand father? This whole line of questioning is silly. And I was right, you cannot separate the relationships from each other, you lack the perspective of the spirit.
Yet another "so on" comment similar to my previous comment.
Yeah, you asked to be taught, then you say the same things over and over refusing the knowledge I tried to give you.
Orson Pratt taught that “The Gods who dwell in heaven…were once in a fallen state….” The Seer p. 23 [whereas Mormon 9:19; Moroni 8:18; Mormon 9:9-11 all say unchangeable]
This is so out of Context it’s funny
“We believe in a God who is Himself progressive...whose perfection consists in eternal advancement...a Being who has attained His exalted state” (A Study of the Articles of Faith, pp. 430, 1952 James Talmage
Yep, God id ever progressing, and ever in advance of anything we can currently conceive of. What you thought Gods just sat on clouds and hurled lightning bolts?
There we have it. If you have a "fallen being" God...one who progressed and will advance eternally, as Talmage wrote; obviously, the "un-advanced"--the "lower degree progressives" at one point held less authority. And, I would point out, "fallen beings" could not have had much authority at all--certainly not divine authority. All of this de fact proves a line of authority extending beyond your God.
All this proves is that you were not really teachable. You insist on running into the corner and suffocating just like the turkeys I talked about in the round pens.
Well, you can’t save them all.
You are wrong about what we believe, I understand you think we believe that, but you couldn’t be more wrong. Stop telling us what we believe, OK? And for the record since you have been told you are interpreting our beliefs incorrectly, to continue to say what you have been told is wrong is to lie.