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They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious Bigotry, alive and well today
Saundra Duffy

Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy

They Shoot Mormons, Don't They? Religious bigotry, alive and well today

May 4, 2007 - by Saundra Duffy-Hawkins

“I wouldn’t vote for a Mormon for dogcatcher, much less President of the United States!” There’s a lot of that kind of hateful rhetoric going around since Mitt Romney decided to throw his hat in the ring – as if Mormons are some kind of hideous evil monsters. The loudest anti-Mormon shouts, sad to say, are coming from America’s so-called “Christian right”. How can Mitt Romney hope to get a fair shake in this spiritually polluted atmosphere?

There was another man running for President who faced the same dilemma – John F. Kennedy – only he was the target of anti-CATHOLIC bigotry. In his 1960 speech to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association, JFK said the following: “. . .I believe in an America where religious intolerance will someday end - where all men and all churches are treated as equal - where man has the same right to attend or not attend the church of his choice - where there is no Catholic vote, no anti-Catholic vote, no bloc voting of any kind - and where Catholics, Protestants and Jews, at both the lay and pastoral level, will refrain from those attitudes of disdain and division which have so often marred their words in the past, and promote instead the American ideal of brotherhood.” John F. Kennedy Library & Museum (Speeches, 1960). By the way, if you listen to the audio version of JFK’s speech, you will hear the hurt and frustration in his voice and the unfair treatment surely must have caused many a sleepless night.

Fast forward to 2007 where JFK might as well have been “whistlin’ Dixie”. The hostility toward Mormons today, in my opinion, is even worse than that suffered by JFK. Although it is said that JFK lost about a million votes to religious intolerance, Romney stands to lose even more if the anti-Mormon evangelicals hang together.

According to Media Matters for America - “. . . a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media” - FOX News is not reporting accurately on the level of evangelical hostility to the Romney run. Media Matters for America points out that among evangelical leaders rejecting Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson (National Day of Prayer and Focus on the Family, respectively), the Southern Baptist Convention (collectively), Pat Robertson (Christian Broadcasting Network), and Dr. D. James Kennedy (Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Florida). “Among many conservative evangelicals – who comprise a significant part of the Republican base – Mormonism is considered an un-Christian cult.” Media Matters for America (2007)

While stumping in Florida, a man in the audience stood up during the Q&A portion and said the following to Romney: “You, sir, you’re a pretender. You do not know the Lord. You’re a Mormon.” Media Matters for America (2007). This is the kind of un-American, disrespectful treatment Mitt Romney will apparently have to endure throughout the entire campaign – as if just being a Mormon is reason enough to open the floodgates for free flow of pent-up hatred and vindictiveness.

For the record, the Mormon bashers know full well that the official name of Romney’s church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” and the members should rightfully be called “members of the LDS Church” but the words “Mormon” and “Mormonism” have an aura of negativity so they prefer to use the “M” word as if it were dirty.

Less than five minutes cruising around the official LDS website (LDS.org) will show anyone who’s interested that the Church is a Christian organization, with Jesus Christ at the Head. There are no paid clergy – all are volunteers. Humanitarian aid is legendary. Members of the LDS Church believe in strong family values; they are patriotic, they are law-abiding upstanding citizens of their community. Many LDS young men right out of high school go on two-year missions – you know, the guys on bikes – and during their mission they don’t date, read newspapers, go to movies or watch TV; but rather they dedicate two years of their lives to serving others. Many women go on missions as well, and couples, only theirs is 18 months in length but the obligations are basically the same. Most members do not shop or go out to eat on Sundays – reminiscent of the good old days when shops and stores were closed in obedience to the Commandment, “Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy”. If they can help it, LDS Church members do not work on Sundays, either, preferring to spend the day at church and with their families. Church members are encouraged to store up a year’s supply of food and water so they will be able to care for their families in the event of an emergency. The LDS Church believes in self-sufficiency and self-reliance but in the event of a financial hardship the Church distributes food and supplies through their welfare (Bishop’s Storehouse) program. Members of the LDS Church do not drink alcohol nor do they use illicit drugs; they do not drink coffee and tea. A Mormon in good standing, therefore, will not be found in a drunken stupor puking her guts out at 3 a.m. anywhere in the world. Furthermore, members of the church are encouraged to dress modestly, be polite and courteous. And members of the LDS Church are faithful tithe payers. Come on, people, what’s not to love?

So what on earth is their beef, the anti-Mormon zealots? Why is there such disdain for the LDS Church and its members? In Hugh Hewitt’s book, “Mormon in the White House?” he states his thesis that the fierce anti-Mormon sentiment among main-stream Christians stems from one or two or all three of the following factors (in order of importance):

1) “It is just too weird.

2) “A Mormon president will supercharge Mormons’ missionary work.

3) “If there is a Mormon in the White House, Salt Lake City will call the shots, at least on the biggest issues.” Hewitt (2007, p. 221-227)

Hugh Hewitt has written an exquisite book about the Romney campaign and overcoming the “Mormon problem.” It’s a good read and I highly recommend it. Of the three problem points listed in the previous paragraph, Hewitt believes – unless some unforeseen blunder destroys his chances – none of the three is insurmountable for Mitt Romney. (Plus, he has the best hair.)

Well, I’m no Hugh Hewitt, not even close; he’s an icon on the conservative radio talk show circuit. Hewitt could talk circles around me (I’ve seen him in action in Sacramento); he’s brilliant; he’s well educated, well read, no doubt a genius, plus he’s kind of cute. I’m basically a “nobody” – an overweight grandma – but after having researched for this paper, I have come to a totally different conclusion as to why there is such in-your-face angst over Romney’s religion of choice: It’s all about money, power and control (in that order). I think they’re (the evangelical religious bigots, that is) scared half to death and are revving up their attacks, not to save souls, but to save their reputations (which if tarnished would lead to financial ruin).

As I said, all one must do is browse around the LDS official web site to see what the LDS Church believes and stands for. Any reasonable person would conclude that Mormons are not evil monsters at all. In fact, they are God fearing, Christ believing, Holy Ghost following people going about doing good. “You will know them by their fruit” and the LDS has plenty of fruit and they are willing to share.

Earlier, I stated that some high-powered ministries have publicly condemned Mormons: Shirley and James Dobson, the Southern Baptist Convention, Pat Robertson, and Dr. D. James Kennedy – just to name a few. There are hoards of others. Sunday after Sunday, preachers, evangelists, reverends and ministers from all Christian denominations pound the pulpit with anti-Mormon rhetoric. I heard the message loud clear when I was a Baptist and when I tiptoed through evangelical/Pentecostal territories. Was I ever miffed when I later learned for myself the Gospel truth about the LDS Church.

Just think about it, please. If Dr. D. James Kennedy, for example, who wrote the book, The Wolves Among Us, were to admit he’d been wrong in labeling the LDS Church a “cult” that leads unwary ignorant people astray (to hell), what would become of his multi-million-dollar ministry? Suffice it to say, there’s big money to be had by sale of books, tapes, CD’s, videos, and other anti-Mormon propaganda, not to mention speaking engagements and world-wide religious crusades. We’re talking trillions, all told. I realize the anti-Mormon aspect of these ministries is but a small portion of the business, but if the truth came out, that they had been using falsehoods about the LDS Church as a cash cow, their entire empires could tumble.

The ABC News program 20/20 aired on March 23, 2007, exposed the lavish lifestyles of some of the top evangelical preachers – million dollar mansions and personal jets. ABC News - 20/20 (2007) (Again, the LDS Church has no paid clergy.)

It’s nothing new. Severe harassment and persecution has been the lot of the LDS Church since it’s inception in 1820 when a 14-year-old boy named Joseph Smith saw visions and communed with heavenly beings. Rather than discuss the spiritual aspects of the LDS Church, however, let’s stick to facts of history. Taken from a college-level early American history textbook, Joseph Smith, upon experiencing the visions and visitations, believed “that God had work for me to do, and that my name should be for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 292). The textbook continues, “They were met with hostility virtually everywhere they went . . . . As the movement gathered momentum, hundreds of people joined the church; entire congregations of churches of other faiths joined . . .” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 293)

During the dark time of American history when slavery was flourishing and when Native Americans were forced from their lands, the pioneers of the LDS Church also suffered at the hands of unscrupulous politicians, governmental leaders, and angry hate-filled mobs. “In the face of relentless persecution, Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, had led his flock to Illinois. There they had established the town of Nauvoo, which by the mid-1840’s had become the largest city in Illinois with over 15,000 people. . . In June 1844, a mob of non-Mormons broke into the jail where Smith was being held and killed both him and his brother. . .The Mormons abandoned Nauvoo in the spring of 1846 as anti-Mormons pounded the town with cannon, destroying the Great Temple. In a well-coordinated migration, 15,000 Mormons moved in stages to the Great Salt Lake.” Ayers, Gould, Oshinsky, and Soderlund (2004, p. 334-335) Many walked all the way and many died along the way, including innocent babes.

Joseph Smith at one time was tarred and feathered by a mob. No jury, no trial, no judge – and they had planned to castrate him, too. On October 27, 1838, the then governor of Missouri issued an “extermination order”: “The Mormons must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the State if necessary . . .” Far West History (n.d.) Please note that the order called for exterminating “Mormons” making no distinction between men, women and children, and indeed women and children were subject to the extermination order.

In an event known in LDS history as “the Haun’s Mill Massacre”, precipitated by the extermination order, 30 to 40 LDS families were surprised by some 200 to 250 militia. After the smoke cleared, seventeen LDS people lay dead including a ten-year-old boy. Thirteen LDS members were wounded including a woman and a seven-year-old boy. “A few Missourians returned the next day and took plunder.” LDS FAQ (n.d.) No Missouri militiamen were killed but three were wounded. Just a few years earlier, the LDS folk who died that day had been members of other churches - Congregational or Methodist or Baptist or Presbyterian.

In l976, Governor Bond of Missouri officially rescinded the extermination order and presented apologies for the “unfortunate developments” it caused. Quoting from Governor Bond’s Executive Order: “WHEREAS, Governor Boggs’ order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and . . . Expressing on behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue suffering rescind Executive Order Number 44 dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs. . .” Far West History (n.d.) The individuals who harassed, abused, and even murdered Mormons in cold blood were never tried for their crimes.

I read Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.’s Letter from Birmingham Jail and it really touched my heart. There he was, suffering for the Lord in jail, and these religious leaders with highfalutin titles on the outside wrote an open letter (“A Call for Unity”) in which they criticize King’s tactics and basically blame King for the racial turmoil of the time. Though you can tell King is upset and hurt by the attack – made worse because he’s stuck in jail and can’t confront the religious leaders face-to-face – his response is gentle genius. “I wish you had commended the Negro sit-inners and demonstrators of Birmingham for their sublime courage, their willingness to suffer, and their amazing discipline in the midst of great provocation. One day the South will recognize its real heroes.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 881)

King has a few choice words for the Church, too: “If today’s church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. Every day I meet young people whose disappointment with the church has turned into outright disgust.” Barnet and Bedau (2005, p. 880)

King signs off with “Yours for the cause of Peace and Brotherhood”.

There’s an eerie commonality between what JFK and MLK endured at the hands of the religious bigots of their day and what Mitt Romney is facing today. I hope and pray that Romney will be able to fend off these undeserved attacks from the religious hypocrites with the same grace, dignity and God-inspired resolve displayed by the other two.

A few popular bumper stickers read: “Honk if you love Jesus” and “Christians aren’t perfect, just forgiven” or “Jesus is my co-pilot”. Yet, apparently, these same bumper-sticker Christians are the ones waging war against Mitt Romney’s run for the Presidency solely on the basis of his chosen faith in a Church that bears the name of the Savior of the world.

References

ABC News - 20/20 (2007). Philanthropic donations come from your heart, but where do they end up? Ex-money manager says "enough!" to secretive Christian Ministry spending. Glenn Ruppel & John Stossel. United States: ABC News.

Ayers, E. L., Gould, L. L., Oshinsky, D. M., & Soderlund, J. R. (2004). American Passages - a history of the United States - Volume I: to 1877 (2nd ed.). Belmont, California: Thomson/Wadsworth.

Barnet, S., & Bedau, H. (2005). Letter from Birmingham Jail. Current Issues and Enduring Questions - a guide to critical thinking and argument, with readings (7th ed., pp. 867-882). Boston and New York: Bedford/St. Martin's.

Far West History. (n.d.). The Extermination Order and how it was rescinded. Retrieved April 28, 2007, from http://www.jwha.info/mmff/exorder.htm

Hewitt, H. (2007). A Mormon in the White House? 10 things every American should know about Mitt Romney. Washington, D.C.: Regnery Publishing, Inc.

John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum. (1960, September 12). Address of Senator John F. Kennedy to the Greater Houston Ministerial Association. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://www.jfklibrary.org

Lds Faq. (n.d.). What was the Haun's Mill Massacre? Retrieved April 28-2007, 2004, from Brigham Young University Web Site: http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=57

Media Matters for America. (2007). Fox News whitewashes evangelical hostility to Romney's faith. Retrieved April 22, 2007, from http://mediamatters.org/items/printable/200702280002


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: boggsforgovernor; cuespookymusic; election; lds; mormon; mormons; romney; whitesalamanderblues
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To: MHGinTN
You Mormons believe Jesus and God the Father are two separate individuals, with God the greater and Jesus the created being lesser.

OK, the first part of your statement is accurate, but the last is not. Why are you telling me what I believe, especially when it is not true? Please show me in your volumes and bookmarks of anti Mormon ammo where LDS doctrine states that Jesus is "lesser" than the Father?

1,161 posted on 05/07/2007 10:20:15 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: sevenbak
That which is created is not equal to the Creator.

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

John1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. … 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

The Word IS GOD and became the flesh in the Son. God is One ... I understand you cannot see the unity, but 'One' and 'Unity' are the same Word in Hebrew.

1,162 posted on 05/07/2007 10:27:09 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: MHGinTN
"Oaths and covenants made by members of the Church in the temples are no greater threat to our nation than are the oaths made by Masons in their ceremonies."

An amazing comparison since the rituals in your Temple are so similar to those in Masonic rituals.

On that fact alone, perhaps we can purge the politics vs. religion fear that some seem to have. Starting with George Washington, 15 POTUS have been Masons. As have countless SC justices and other political, government figures.

We believe the Temple and temple ordinances to have existed in most all periods of time when the fullness of the Priesthood was on the earth. Many Masons trace their ceremonies back to King David and the temple rights of God's people. The reason there are a few similarities between the two is because truth is eternal... and so, apparently is apostasy. Whatever elements the Masons have in their sessions that are similar to the LDS temple is but a small, but fractured remnant of those ancient and eternal principles.

1,163 posted on 05/07/2007 10:31:20 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: MHGinTN
Again I restate the question, please show me where we believe Jesus is lesser that God. He is God!
1,164 posted on 05/07/2007 10:33:12 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: sevenbak
Mormonism claims Jesus is a created being ... you can figure it out, if you will but open your 'inner eye' ... and I know you have such an eye because I've witrnessed it in the occasional post.

Did you happen to see that great Utah Jazz v Golden State game that just ended? That was the reason I'm still up back East.

1,165 posted on 05/07/2007 10:37:35 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: greyfoxx39
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me just what event with Romney caused audience booing. Where was it, what state, locality, venue? When? I would like to see a link.
1,166 posted on 05/07/2007 10:37:46 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: greyfoxx39
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me just what event with Romney caused audience booing. Where was it, what state, locality, venue? When? I would like to see a link.

I hope you've found it, I'm a day behind.

1,167 posted on 05/07/2007 10:39:04 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: MHGinTN
Jesus wasn’t “created” He was the only begotten son, first spiritually, then physically. I know this may seem like a contradiction, but maybe this will help you understand where we are coming from:

D&C 93:
21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the firstborn;
22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.
23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is spirit, even the Spirit of truth;
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;
25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.
26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fullness of truth, yea, even of all truth;
27 And no man receiveth a fullness unless he keepeth his commandments.
28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and dknoweth all things.
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.
31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.
32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the alight is under condemnation.
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

1,168 posted on 05/07/2007 10:48:12 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: MHGinTN
Sorry, forgot to highlight the relevant verses.

Jesus wasn’t “created” He was the only begotten son, first spiritually, then physically. I know this may seem like a contradiction, but maybe this will help you understand where we are coming from:

D&C 93:
21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the firstborn;
22 And all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.
23 Ye were also in the beginning with the Father; that which is spirit, even the Spirit of truth;
24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;
25 And whatsoever is more or less than this is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning.
26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fullness of truth, yea, even of all truth;
27 And no man receiveth a fullness unless he keepeth his commandments.
28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and dknoweth all things.
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

31 Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light.
32 And every man whose spirit receiveth not the alight is under condemnation.
33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

1,169 posted on 05/07/2007 10:51:21 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: MHGinTN

Oh, and I didn’t see the game, I was too busy catching up. Did the Jazz win?


1,170 posted on 05/07/2007 10:53:29 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: sevenbak

Pulled it out in the last two minutes! Very good game. Best to you all ... I’m off to bed.


1,171 posted on 05/07/2007 10:54:50 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: Sherman Logan
A historian recently researched it and could find almost no contemporary evidence for it ever happening. Less than ten examples in tens of thousands of newspapers he reviewed over decades.

But many thousands of Irish "remembered" it vividly.

From your link:

The market for female household workers occasionally specified religion or nationality. Newspaper ads for women sometimes did include NINA, but Irish women nevertheless dominated the market for domestics because they provided a reliable supply of an essential service.

LOL!     Your link equivocated with this statement and then said it almost never happened. Here's your sign:

Logic Need Not Apply

I quickly found another link for a syllabus, http://www.nde.state.ne.us/SS/irish/unit_2.html, that included this:

The British historian Edward Freeman visited the United States in 1881. His obituary states that "he gloried in the Germanic origin of the English nation." On his return from America, he wrote: "This would be a grand land if only every Irishman would kill a Negro, and be hanged for it. I find this sentiment generally approved - sometimes with the qualification that they want Irish and Negroes for servants, not being able to get any other." - Curtis, Anglo Saxons..., op.cit., p.81

Just look at Thomas Nast's cartoons to find out the sentiment of the day.

With the xenophobia culminating in the creation of the Know Nothing Parties, sworn to overcome the Irish threat, it takes little imagination to see the numerous citizens that would have been terrified to hire an Irish person. At that time, it was not forbidden by law and is certain to have been a common practice.


1,172 posted on 05/07/2007 10:57:45 PM PDT by higgmeister (In the Shadow of The Big Chicken)
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To: MHGinTN

Cool! G’Night


1,173 posted on 05/07/2007 10:58:11 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: Sherman Logan

Except for Islam, these specious arguments about members of one “faith” being MORE responsible for “murders” compared to members of other “faiths” never can compare to the number of murders committed by atheists and agnostics, murders in the name of........nothing except raw human malice and perversion.....nothing at all to do with any vision of “God”.


1,174 posted on 05/07/2007 11:02:40 PM PDT by supremedoctrine
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To: sevenbak; P-Marlowe; Colofornian
BTW, if Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, is Lucifer also equal?

I suspect Joe Smith (or the power behind Joe's 'inspirations') couldn't anticipate the developments in Physics and Cosmology which have brought the notion of 'big bang' and a beginning to the entire spacetime universe into existence else he would have handled the 'everlasting to everlasting' in the spirit realm differently (spirits are created by GOD), maybe making lucifer a created being but not the brother of Jesus. Genesis has been accurate all along, we just didn't know how it was accurate until these 'latter days'.

Bless you sevenbak, you're still caught in the 'created being can be equal with God' rut. Jesus IS GOD in the flesh and IS the Word, and IS the very Creator of all that is, thus He is not a created being, He IS Creator. Jesus is one of three ways God manifests and none of the three is created for He has always been and IS greater than the creation or created.

Manana ...

1,175 posted on 05/07/2007 11:05:33 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for others.)
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To: greyfoxx39
My widowed mother on social security was allowed to work in one of the church's office to "work off her tithe". She would never say what her hourly wage was.

OK, now I'm confused. Were you a member or was it your mother? Are you sure she wasn't working off Church Welfare. Bishops often encourage those getting Church assistance, food, money etc, to work in some capacity or another.

I remember a time when my dad was between jobs that we received weekly help, both in finances and food. Our family went down on 2 0r 3 occasions to help at one of the church dairies, to help the process continue on for others people in the future who needed help. It's a great program, totally opposite of Government welfare. The Presiding Bishop, at the invitation of congress, has even testified in Washington on the merits of the program. I believe this happened a few years ago when welfare reform was being discussed.

1,176 posted on 05/07/2007 11:12:56 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: MHGinTN
Are you typing in your sleep? ;-)

If you didn’t understand the meaning of D&C 93, then we are at a loss to come together on this. G’night FRiend.

1,177 posted on 05/07/2007 11:18:23 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: colorcountry; restornu
Are you suggesting that he divorce me now that I have left the Church?

I didn't get that from her post.

I am curious Color as to your discussion of the Church with your husband. I hope I'm not being too personal... but it seems with all your posts that you do about how bad and evil the church is, and how you are doing it out of "love" for your fellow deceived Mormons, then why not talk of these same things to your own husband. I'm guessing you love him more than any of us. I'm not trying to be a smartalec Color. I know you were reluctant to tell him you left the church officially.

I really do have a lot of respect for you , It must be extremely challenging to live both ways, and still try to have a successful marriage. Please don't take this as hateful bait, it's not intended that way at all, but I can see how it could be percieved as such. I'm just saying that it must be very challenging and extremely difficult.

I never understood the relationship with James Carville and Mary Matalin either. Love conquers all!!!!

1,178 posted on 05/07/2007 11:31:16 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: colorcountry

Ah, I should have kept reading... Thanks! Sorry I asked.


1,179 posted on 05/07/2007 11:34:58 PM PDT by sevenbak (A LIE travels around the world while the TRUTH is still putting on its boots -Winston Churchill)
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To: tantiboh; sevenbak; Utah Girl; Grig
Resty, SL acknowledge that there may have been reasons that the Mormons involved in MMM did what they did; but he was quite correct that there is no excuse for what they did.

I am NOT defending the actions of those involved TANTIBOH!

I, for one, will not try to rationalize evil, particularly when committed by those who profess to believe in the same faith as me.

This is not to rationalize this is to put things in perspective

What they did was evil. There is no defense.

I don't ever recall saying it was defensible TANTIBOH!

It’s wise for us to acknowledge this, and move on.

I don't appreciate you TANTIBOH implying or maligning my integrity that I would condon such a thing!

My point on this has always been to understand to the best of my ability what took place and why?

In all of my post over the years posting on this subject has been, it was an wicked act, and that Brigham was not involved in this, and there was a times someone even try to present a rusty sign or something to that effect trying to connect Brigham to this and later it was found out to be a forgery!

Before you think the worst of me again, is it too much to ask what I mean by that? I am dyslexic I know that don't seem to mean much to you but I get more understanding from CC than from you!

1,180 posted on 05/07/2007 11:44:37 PM PDT by restornu (Elevate Your Thoughts!)
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