Meinhof gang killer gets parole

Yea right, respect:

Bush Hitler
Bush Cowboy
No blood for oil
Locust Capitalists
Hegomoniale Weltmacht
and and and (all written in your well informed Spiegel BTW)

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Bottom line, she's a terrorist who was personally involved with four murders and a kidnapping, was a leader of the organization, never even said that what she did was wrong, nor feels remorse today, was in her 30s when she committed these acts in a planned and premeditated fashion based on a political motivation. Better yet, she had previously been incarcerated and been let go on parole, which she violated, and you today hide behind all sorts of BS pretending as if it's OK that she be released after 24 years.

*** If you respect a state, you don't let people like that make a mockery of your laws. If you respect your republic, you don’t let people who openly stated and acted out in a way to destroy it go free. If you respect the victims, you don't let a person like this out, EVER!

I suggest you read a bit about the Weimar Republic and how this state was sabotaged and brought down to its knees by thugs before you talk about respecting a Republic or valuing a Constitution.

UN Resolution language (1999):

"1. Strongly condemns all acts, methods and practices of terrorism as criminal and unjustifiable, wherever and by whomsoever committed;

2. Reiterates that criminal acts intended or calculated to provoke a state of terror in the general public, a group of persons or particular persons for political purposes are in any circumstance unjustifiable, whatever the considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or other nature that may be invoked to justify them". (GA Res. 51/210 Measures to eliminate international terrorism)
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Short legal definition proposed by A. P. Schmid to United Nations Crime Branch (1992):

Act of Terrorism = Peacetime Equivalent of War Crime

Academic Consensus Definition:

"Terrorism is an anxiety-inspiring method of repeated violent action, employed by (semi-) clandestine individual, group or state actors, for idiosyncratic, criminal or political reasons, whereby - in contrast to assassination - the direct targets of violence are not the main targets. The immediate human victims of violence are generally chosen randomly (targets of opportunity) or selectively (representative or symbolic targets) from a target population, and serve as message generators. Threat- and violence-based communication processes between terrorist (organization), (imperilled) victims, and main targets are used to manipulate the main target (audience(s)), turning it into a target of terror, a target of demands, or a target of attention, depending on whether intimidation, coercion, or propaganda is primarily sought" (Schmid, 1988).

http://www.unodc.org/unodc/terrorism_definitions.html

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There is a difference between a terrorist and a normal criminal. What you engage in is again a very common thing among liberals and Germans, moral relativism. You use "polemics" to argue, not facts.

She is a terrorist. She is a terrorist under the laws of any Western state. The first thing you attempt to do is to sanitize the language, typical of socialists. Let's not call her a terrorist but a criminal. No, she is a terrorist, got it?

Secondly, when she was incarcerated it was with the expressed intent to lock her up forever. It was more or less understood that these people should never be let out again, which is exactly what is not happening right now.

"Yeah it's not all about waving star spangled banners here. " You wrote

The average German has no concept of his own Constitution nor even knows his national anthem. You're right, your people don't wave the flag, maybe you should try it a bit more. Your Verfassung is worthless if you don't know what it says. Your Verfassung is meaningless if people don't "respect" it. I would bet money that I as an American know more about your Constitution than most of your fellow Germans.

Seeing how about half of those killed by the RAF were Americans, there are some who do take an interest. My father was in the HQ building on Rhein Main when a RAF bomb went off in the parking lot. They got on the base using an ID stolen from a GI they had previously murdered in Frankfurt. My father was OK. Not that you care, since people like you are more worried about the rights of terrorists. But there are people who care about these minor things.

The average German has no concept of his own Constitution nor even knows his national anthem. You're right, your people don't wave the flag, maybe you should try it a bit more.

Do not overdraw. You know that this is definitly wrong. Most Germans know their national anthem and most Germans got comprehensive information about our constitution, the Grundgesetz in school.

It is indeed true that Germans do not tend to nationalism since the MSM tells the German people that we made bad experiences with it in our history. This is wrong because it was not the (positive) nationalism that was evil in Germany from 33 - 45, it was the nazi ideology. Therefore I for my part understand myself as a German patriot with a positive nationalistic background that is no weird or agressive religion to me. Germany has to work on numerous issues. I.e. the Grundgesetz is not perfect and there are many things that could be changed to make it better. Nevertheless I love my county by heart, I would never ever betray it and I follow the rules.

Besides - I recieved a really excellent entering guide into the Grundgesetz in high-school during the mid-80ties.

Seeing how about half of those killed by the RAF were Americans, there are some who do take an interest. My father was in the HQ building on Rhein Main when a RAF bomb went off in the parking lot. They got on the base using an ID stolen from a GI they had previously murdered in Frankfurt. My father was OK. Not that you care, since people like you are more worried about the rights of terrorists. But there are people who care about these minor things.

I understand your anger very well and I am for sure not the only German who is against any mercy concerning Mohnhaupt or Klar. Nevertheless you have to understand that it is not you that has a right to judge over those people since those attacks happend in Germany on German soil. That is simply our party. We Germans had good reasons to abolish capital punishment after WWII. There is for sure no country were more "judicial errors" happend in last century than in Germany. It is still better to feed all those moronics than to execute one innocent person. Personally I am really not sure if i.e. the American justice did not made some horrible mistakes in the past with some criminal cases. As far as I know our penology does not see retaliation as important as it is in the US. In fact it is not important at all in our system. The aim of our criminal law is to provide safety for the public and to correct criminal offenders. Other countries other attitudes.

Personally I would take out capital punishment in rare cases on certain persons if they are dangerous and guilty in the same time. I.e. I think the hanging of Saddam Hussein was just. Maybe it is a myth (I do not think so) that Baader, Meinhof and Ensslin were executed by our gouvernment. Nevertheless I think that this (if it was the case) was just too, since their existance posed a thread to innocent people. The existance of contemporary Mohnhaupt and Klar does not pose a thread anymore. Therefore I do not see a reason to execute them. Nevertheless they would die in jail if it would be my decision. There is no excuse for what they have done.

This debate has taken a turn over the discussion of capital punishment. A justice system serves to rehabilitate, deter others, and incapacitate those committing crimes. However, one minor aspect that often gets overlooked is the victims who usually get “closure” through this.

Good example:
http://media.www.lsureveille.com/media/storage/paper868/news/2005/04/13/News/Examining.Execution-2052470.shtml

Is it pure coincidence that most executions are usually attended by the family of the victims? No. The execution is a permanent irreversible act which no longer allows the most heinous criminals an opportunity of escape (Dahmer escaped for example). It no longer allows them to propagate hate in the media which often will gladly stick a microphone in their face because they see a controversial story. Finally, an execution is cheaper. You watch, within 5 years you’ll see a book on the RAF and Mohnhaupt and others will “profit” from their terrorism. Want to bet? The argument which you propose is a perversion of the core benefit of capital punishment, irreversibility. In the perversion this benefit is twisted into an argument as to why it should not be done because of the possibility of a mistake. Fact is, since the reinstatement of capital punishment in 1976, there has not been a single case where it can be said conclusively a mistake had been made. It’s all speculation and accusations, but in over 3,000 executions not one can be said to have been falsely executed.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/cp00.txt

In the US, the average cost of a high security inmate in a prison is $34,000 per year (2006). In Germany, it surly is not much different that a high security prison costs a lot. Furthermore, Mohnhaupt will be shadowed by the BVS for the rest of her life. She will cost the German tax payer hundreds of thousands per year now that she is out, and even though Der Spiegel won’t report it, it will cost the tax payer more now that she is out of prison than in prison, believe it or not.

You perform an execution for three reasons. It’s cheaper, permanent, and it brings closure for the victims. An execution is not done for rehabilitation or deterrence sake. Someone like Dahmer was not thinking about being executed while committing his crimes and deterrence does not play a factor when looking at the psyche of those doing these sorts of things. It’s done for society’s sake, not the criminal or terrorist.

Prime example: Timothy McVeigh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_McVeigh

He was guilty, many of the families of victims attended the execution, he won’t ever go free like a Mohnhaupt, he’s not making money from his “terrorism”, and he’s no longer living off of my tax dollar. This vile creature’s existence is over.

The argument that we should "lock them up and throw away the keys" never seems to hold in the long run, as Mohnhaupt and others prove.

''The argument that we should "lock them up and throw away the keys" never seems to hold in the long run, as Mohnhaupt and others prove''
Indeed very true. And I would still like to know the percentage of the populace in Germany, which support this release. Most people I have spoken to recently are not in favor of it. The police union and the Schleyer family don`t seem to be alone in this issue. It looks more like the 'Schicki-Micki' lefty elitist have used (abused ?)their power to release her ( and expect Christian Klar soon to follow) on the first possible date. It´s a shame.

As I already said in my #27 it is a question of different values in our penology systems. It was a very cognizant decision not to execute people after 1949 anymore in (west) Germany and this decision is even part of our constitution, the Grundgesetz.

Why are people not executed in Germany? Answer: Retaliation is -in sharp difference to the American legal system- no important value for itself anymore.

The families of Schleyer or your family -in this case- only can take minimal influence on a lawsuit as a joint plaintiff (Nebenkläger).

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebenkl%C3%A4ger

You say that capital punishment in the US is done for society’s sake.

Same could be said about the German refusal to do it. Since we follow different values and we are for good reasons afraid of wrongful convictions it is not part of our penalization anymore. Our society probably would enter a major crisis if it would be obvious that the German State killed somebody innocent again after 1945.

As I said - different countries, different attitudes. Therefore it can be right for us what is wrong for you. We have a different history and a different socialization than Americans.

I do not say that capital punishment is always wrong and Baader, Meinhof and Ensslin were probably executed by my own gouvernment (as you probably know the German gouvernment speaks of suicide* - I can not say which version of the story is wrong or right) in a rightful decision to prevent other left terrorists from more blackmail after the highjack of the Lufthansajet "Landshut" in 1977. The existance of those terrorists posed a eminent danger to other people and therefore it was good to get rid of them.

The real problem in Germany is not the absence of capital punishment, it is the inconsequence of legal practice. If a life sentence would be really a life sentence I would be perfectly content. It is indeed unbearable that Mohnhaupt is able to make a business out of her disgusting life. I share this point of view with you.

* If it happened the way I think (we all know that Strauss suggested to execute as many terrorists as the highjackers of the Landshut kill passengers) is was done for society’s sake. One one hand our gouvernment of 1977 refused to change our fundamental values in our penalization system because of this isolated incident, on the other hand it was nessecary to protect our fellow citizens from the terrorist threat.

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