Posted on 01/28/2007 12:47:01 PM PST by Sam Hill
Today begins Ashura, which like the festival of Eid al-Adha is another bloodthirsty Muslim holiday:
And we wonder why these people are so violent.
Excerpted. Please read the rest at Sweetness & Light...
They problem is that you can't see the forest for all the quoted trees.
Do only Shia celebrate Ashoura? And only certain Shia sects practice the bloodletting? Just curious.
Day of Ashura - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_of_Ashura
Apparently both Sunni and Shia commemorate the event. But it would seem that the Shiites go more in for the self-flagellation and laceration.
Thanks!
Carolyn
You said -- "More than 30 years ago I heard this interpretation of this passage as referring to the pre-Trib rapture. It's another example of eisegesis based on previously held interpretations the truth of which is taken for granted and, therefore, never thoroughly examined."
It's already thoroughly explained here (link below), in regards to the original language. And also note the translations prior to King James (given in that note, too). That puts it (at least for the translators) back about 500 years ago. But, for the church, it's already been explained elsewhere that it's been there from the first few centuries. You can read up on it. This first link will give you a start -- and move your date of 30 years -- at least back another 500 years. More reading will move it back a couple of millennia --
http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=165
They are much better qualified than me to explain it. That's why the link was given up above.
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "Dude, that already happened. You're about 1936 years too late. It was a future event to Jesus and to Daniel. The sacrifices were interrupted in the Temple that was in place and later, as Jesus foretold, the Temple was torn down. The latter day eschatological cults have left you unprepared to read scripture."
Well, the preterist position has never seemed very accurate to me. For one thing, in that Matthew 24 (and I think I've already quoted it in prior posts above), you'll notice that Jesus refers to this time that He's talking about in a certain way. It's this time that He refers to that the "abomination of desolation" takes place in the holy place (which they understood to be the Temple and you can see it referred to by Paul, too).
And by the way, there *was* an event that was *prior* to the time of Jesus when there was someone who did stand in the holy place, declaring himself to be God. Since that was *prior* to Jesus (although "future" to Daniel) -- that event does not meet Jesus' statements (another reason, also, you can see below).
Furthermore, the one standing in the holy place, declaring himself to be God, never happened back then, after Jesus' time. There was a destruction of the temple, but, as you can see below -- it doesn't meet Jesus' *standard* for the event He is talking about. You can see why it does not meet that standard of what Jesus was walking about, below.
So, there was an event before Jesus (didn't meet the standard), there was no one standing in the holy place, declaring himself to be God (didn't meet the standard, see the Apostle Paul on that one), ane then, it doesn't meet the standard for the type of tribulation that it was (Hitler in the 1940s surpassed that back then, so didn't meet the standard).
So, His disciples ask Him when the end of the age is and the sign of His coming --
"And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Jesus explains about a lot of things that are going to happen, and then he goes to that "abomination of desolation" and he places it at this particular time frame -- in terms of the great tribulation (that He refers to).
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.
So, we have this time period, which is the end of the age, after which Jesus returns, and we see that there is *no greater tribulation* ever to be seen on this earth -- not from the "beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be."
Well, it's obvious that we've surpassed that particular localized tribulation, in and around Jerusalem, the sacking of it from Rome and its total destruction. I believe there were about one million or maybe a million and a half Jews killed during that time. But, even so, the world has seen worse, as far as "tribulations" go. That was nothing compared to others.
Hitler, himself surpassed the killing of the Jews in the 1940s by about *four times* as many -- as the Romans did, back then (at that time period).
So, it's obvious that this "great tribulation" had not happened *yet* -- even in the 1940s, because we still have the potential for *surpassing that* -- today (and in the future).
Sorry, greater tribulations are yet to come -- and anyone with half a brain can tell we have not reached the "apex" of "great tribulations" yet.
And since Jesus said that there would *never* be another time period that would *ever* surpass it -- even from the beginning of the world to the *end* of the world -- well..., we're not there yet.
Good try, though. Try again...
Regards,
Star Traveler
You said -- "Again, you're guilty of eisegesis and faulty logic. The sad thing is you don't even realize it."
Well, I hope you do know that your preterist position is such a small and insignificant part of Christian scholarship (i.e., "non-scholarhsip) that most don't even bother mentioning it. It's hardly worth the effort.
I wouldn't have mentioned it because it causes most people to walk away from it scratching their heads, wondering how people can twist Jesus' words so much. But, you do bring it up, so I answered a few points for you, in the above posts.
Regards,
Star Traveler
Happy Ashura 2008, y’all!
I forgot to add that Ashura is actually the name of a demon. Check it out!
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