Looking Behind the 'Purpose Driven' Sheep's Clothing

Cybercast News Service ^ | December 29, 2006 | Christopher G. Adamo

[Marysecretary]

They ARE in power, in their churches and in their communities, etc. It may not be right, but that's the way it is. I am happy to let God deal with such folk. Most of us here have our own sins to deal with.

[Marysecretary]

Everything these days gets covered up and it's rare to ever find out what really happens in cases like that. Are there records that can now be unsealed that interested people can see?

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Name a false teacher in the Bible that lead others to Christ.

Apollos in Corinth before he was properly instructed.

Still burning that old straw man are ye? What you refuse to see is that NOBODY has said that False teaching leads to true conversion. False teaching can be used by God to lead His Chosen TO the truth...It is by no means normative, which is what i have maintained all along.

i'm very sorry that you have chosen to doubt the sovereignity and power of God.

Now so far i've answered your challenges, when are you going to admit that you just blew the call? It's not a big deal really, everyone makes mistakes. Maybe one of these days at another place i can tell you about a few of the bone-headed ones that i've made.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Now, Dear Heart . . .

you should know . . .

"getting a grip"

is the opposite of the customary doctrinal compulsive SOP requirements for the postings hereon by the Jr Accusers.

LOL.

Quix, Dear fellow, i believe that you have mistaken my position. i am probably among Rick Warren's most vocal critics.

Still, i have priorities and limits.

i don't care what Warren's political opinions happen to be. My view on this is echoed in the admonishment of that apostacised puritan Henry David Thoreau who said: "Tell me what a man beleives, and I'll tell you what he'll do"

It is my view that Warren's political Faux Pas is simply a symptom of either

1. Bad doctrine...or
2. poor application of correct doctrine, or
3. a combination of BOTH bad doctrine and the incorrect application of correct doctrine.

One treats root causes, not symptoms

LIMITS:
There is plenty of legitimate criticism that is being registered against Rick Warren, Bill Hybles, the late John Wimber, Robert Schuller, Joel Osteen and others.

What i have refused to be a part of are matters that are unsubstantiated gossip, or outright hit pieces on these people. And make no mistake, there have been hit pieces on Warren and others posted here on Freerepublic. i called BS on one of them a while back. Turned out that the organisation that was criticising Warren had problems with the fact that he was "religious", and was giving THEM a bit of competition.

When one claiming to be a minister of the Gospel makes public proclamation of error, he should be publically rebuked.

That is the pattern of Jesus, Peter, and Paul. But what do they know? Jesus was only God incarnate, Peter and Paul only penned over 1/3 of the New Testament between them </sarcasm>

Apollos, as i just mentioned to nmh, was confronted with the error of his teaching when he was preaching the baptism of John in Corinth. He made the correct choice of repenting, and preaching corrected doctrine.

The actions taken by Warren in this recent matter offer quite a contrast. It is now demonstrable truth that the man outright lied when confronted with his errors.

This is neither the leading, or the fruit of the holy spirit by any means.

If Warren doesn't like it, he can take the attitude of Apollos, repent, correct, and move on.

If Warren's disciples don't like it, then they need consider what is motivating them, God or the cult of personality

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

C. S. Lewis was commissioned to write something to encourage the troops during WWI. "Screwtape Letters" was the result.

Not quite. You may have made a typo, but the fact is, that Lewis was too busy getting his ass shot off (literally, he joked about it later in life) as a 'litter' bearer in WWI. (the equivalent of one of our combat medics, or corpsmen if one is a Marine). i don't know if he wrote Screwtape as encouragement for the troops in WWII or not. The book was completed in 1942, being first released as a series of articles in the Guardian.

The work was thought provoking, even if not well read in it's time. Still, i found Lewis' That Hideous Strength the most frightening book i have ever read. Machen's Christianity and Liberalism would be second.

[pby]

I don't personally know the man and my posts are not mean-spirited nor motivated by hatred.

You require more than the New Testament does when it comes to refuting false teachers and false teachings.

Paul and Peter did it publicly.

I understand that you are battle-weary but the enemies attack is relentless...Thus, the fight must press on. We have to stand firm and contend for the faith.

[Huber]

As a traditional Anglican, I sometimes feel ill equipped to comment on trends among the mega-church movement, so I posed the question to a good friend who is in the evangelical / Southern Baptist camp, to get his perspective. Here is his reply:

"My belief is that the root of the situation is simple.
They are "seeker friendly". You've probably heard
the phrase. On the surface it seems good. Let's get
them in, win them over, and do it without being
offensive.

Well, the problem is that the Word of God is
offensive. It is a stone of stumbling. It is sharper
than a two edged sword, rightly dividing the word of
truth. The truth is offensive. Let's get them in,
win them over, and do it without being offensive.

The article itself is well written, and very
insightful. The writer uses the phrase, "...tells
each what he believes they want to hear." This is
extracted straight from scripture. The biblical
reference is to the church with itching ears, wanting
only to hear what they want to hear. They don't want
to hear, "...be ye holy as I am holy", with Holy here
meaning set apart, and separate. The seeker
sensitives really are satisfied with blending in with
the back ground, and not being able to distinguish
them from the rest of the crowd.

Additional insight is provided through the reference
to Willow Creek Church. This church is considered to
be at the heart of the "seeker sensitive" movement.

When you go to Saddleback's home page, you can see it
is about people, and not about God. Salvation is not
even mentioned in the first page of what we believe.

So, there you go. I believe Rick Warren is a great
supporter of the seeker friendly movement. It is
interesting to note that you really don't see Franklin
Graham (now there's a guy that gets the Gospel out)
aligning himself with Rick Warren.

Sorry I wrote so much, but I feel strongly about this.
These are the people that diminish the work of the
Cross and take away from the Gospel."

[Quix]

Shockingly, I much agree with you.

Thanks.

[Quix]

THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH

was a struggle for me--exceedingly uncommonly so--about Jr High, or so, as I recall--and almost threw me for a loop.

Mercifully, God still used it.

PTL.

[Tax-chick]

That was very informative, thanks, Huber.

[nmh]

"Still burning that old straw man are ye? What you refuse to see is that NOBODY has said that False teaching leads to true conversion. False teaching can be used by God to lead His Chosen TO the truth...It is by no means normative, which is what i have maintained all along.

i'm very sorry that you have chosen to doubt the sovereignity and power of God.

Now so far i've answered your challenges, when are you going to admit that you just blew the call? It's not a big deal really, everyone makes mistakes. Maybe one of these days at another place i can tell you about a few of the bone-headed ones that i've made."

You know what. I really DISLIKE YOUR obnoxious attitude.

As my spouse would say, with people like that in heaven, I don't want to be THERE.

All you have accomplished with your over the top ego and pride is to turn people OFF.

My faith and salvation is not at risk even with people as ungodly as you on the loose.

Don't ping me or I'll become as unChristian as you are. You don't need an audiance. You're so full of yourself that even that isn't required.

As others have noted, there is NO LOVE from you. You're the kind that gloats over the mistakes of others and gets off on turning the knife in more. There is nothing Christian about that. Ah, but you may have some head knoweldge ... you utterly lack HEART knowledge. You're like a clanging bell ... .

[Quix]

These are the people that diminish the work of the Cross and take away from the Gospel."

I still, mostly, do not see it that way.

Most nonChristians, unchurched etc.

are sick to DEATH of ornery, exceedingly flawed themselves, so called Christians taking THEIR crosses and bloodying everyone within reach for not believing precisely and constipatedly as that individual believes.

And, or, they have pontificated loudly about being Christian this in this way or Christian that in that way while being blood thirsty hypocrites abusively all over whoever will tolerate it.

AND THE NONBELIEVERS ARE SICK OF IT. THEY WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD AND CHRISTIANITY AS A RESULT. AND I DON'T BLAME THEM.

Seems to me the seeker friendly folks are SLIGHTLY TO SOMEWHAT righting things by showing Christ's COME UNTO ME LITTLE CHILDREN side.

Jesus was PRIMARILY fire and brimstone TO RELIGIOUS LEADERS

--NOT THE HUNGRY HURTING MASSES.

[Gamecock]

Well said.

FK: FYI.

[Tax-chick]

wow - graphics!

[Quix]

Hey . . . it's Friday.

Besides . . . . sometimes, feels like some things just scream for it.

LOL.

[Tax-chick]

It's definitely livelier than just capitalizing :-).

[Huber]

There are many who agree with you, for the other seems a more difficult and less kind path by temporal standards.

[AppyPappy]

AND THE NONBELIEVERS ARE SICK OF IT. THEY WANT NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD AND CHRISTIANITY AS A RESULT

Then I guess they will just have to go to Hell. But at least they know they are going there. There are plenty of pew sitters going to Hell because they have never truly known their need for a Savior. Their pastor didn't want to risk making them uneasy.

[Marysecretary]

Publicly, yes, but I still believe it needs to be done in person, directly to them. God tells us if someone is caught in sin to go directly to them, if they don't listen, bring another and if they still don't listen, they're to be taken out of the church. We don't do that anymore. We talk about people behind their backs which doesn't do them or us one bit of good. Better to pray and ask God to reveal their heresy. He will.

[Quix]

CERTAINLY, imho, the Godly standard is TRUTH IN LOVE.

But most folks are so battered and bruised by abusive parenting . . . the last thing they need is an abusive Christianity/church/religion.

And God knows that. He's as fed up with such churches and Christianity more than the abused folks, imho.

YES--CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED. TAKE UP ONE'S CROSS DAILY; DENY SELF ETC. ETC. ETC.

HOLY SPIRIT is well able and willing to lead folks into such maturities . . . in His ways and His time.

Why not introduce them to DADDY and get some healing started FIRST! Sheesh.