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Pyramids were built with concrete rather than rocks, scientists claim
UK Times Online ^ | Today | Chalres Bremner

Posted on 12/01/2006 3:55:23 PM PST by Rodney King

The Ancient Egyptians built their great Pyramids by pouring concrete into blocks high on the site rather than hauling up giant stones, according to a new Franco-American study.

The research, by materials scientists from national institutions, adds fuel to a theory that the pharaohs’ craftsmen had enough skill and materials at hand to cast the two-tonne limestone blocks that dress the Cheops and other Pyramids.

Despite mounting support from scientists, Egyptologists have rejected the concrete claim, first made in the late 1970s by Joseph Davidovits, a French chemist.

The stones, say the historians and archeologists, were all carved from nearby quarries, heaved up huge ramps and set in place by armies of workers. Some dissenters say that levers or pulleys were used, even though the wheel had not been invented at that time.

Until recently it was hard for geologists to distinguish between natural limestone and the kind that would have been made by reconstituting liquefied lime.

But according to Professor Gilles Hug, of the French National Aerospace Research Agency (Onera), and Professor Michel Barsoum, of Drexel University in Philadelphia, the covering of the great Pyramids at Giza consists of two types of stone: one from the quarries and one man-made.

“There’s no way around it. The chemistry is well and truly different,” Professor Hug told Science et Vie magazine. Their study is being published this month in the Journal of the American Ceramic Society.

The pair used X-rays, a plasma torch and electron microscopes to compare small fragments from pyramids with stone from the Toura and Maadi quarries.

They found “traces of a rapid chemical reaction which did not allow natural crystalisation . . . The reaction would be inexplicable if the stones were quarried, but perfectly comprehensible if one accepts that they were cast like concrete.”

The pair believe that the concrete method was used only for the stones on the higher levels of the Pyramids. There are some 2.5 million stone blocks on the Cheops Pyramid. The 10-tonne granite blocks at their heart were also natural, they say. The professors agree with the “Davidovits theory” that soft limestone was quarried on the damp south side of the Giza Plateau. This was then dissolved in large, Nile-fed pools until it became a watery slurry.

Lime from fireplace ash and salt were mixed in with it. The water evaporated, leaving a moist, clay-like mixture. This wet “concrete” would have been carried to the site and packed into wooden moulds where it would set hard in a few days. Mr Davidovits and his team at the Geopolymer Institute at Saint-Quentin tested the method recently, producing a large block of concrete limestone in ten days.

New support for their case came from Guy Demortier, a materials scientist at Namur University in Belgium. Originally a sceptic, he told the French magazine that a decade of study had made him a convert: “The three majestic Pyramids of Cheops, Khephren and Mykerinos are well and truly made from concrete stones.”

The concrete theorists also point out differences in density of the pyramid stones, which have a higher mass near the bottom and bubbles near the top, like old-style cement blocks.

Opponents of the theory dispute the scientific evidence. They also say that the diverse shapes of the stones show that moulds were not used. They add that a huge amount of limestone chalk and burnt wood would have been needed to make the concrete, while the Egyptians had the manpower to hoist all the natural stone they wanted.

The concrete theorists say that they will be unable to prove their theory conclusively until the Egyptian authorities give them access to substantial samples


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: davidovits; geopolymer; geopolymerization; geopolymers; giza; godsgravesglyphs; greatpyramid; josephdavidovits; michelbarsoum; michelwbarsoum; pyramids
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To: GSlob
ancient Egypt did not have much in terms of fuel - no extensive forests.

There were extensive forests upstream on the Nile, easy to fell and float downstream; not to mention those cedars in nearby Lebanon.

61 posted on 12/01/2006 4:53:09 PM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: TXnMA; Fractal Trader; blam
Thanks for the pings, this will make a good GGG topic. Years back I read the earlier edition (in English) of Davidovits' book on geopolymerization and construction of the pyramids. Here's a link to the relevant page of Davidovits' website.
62 posted on 12/01/2006 4:57:18 PM PST by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Thursday, November 16, 2006 https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep

Analogously, there's a gold mine in Brazil that is now a big pit mine, but started as a small mountain. The transformation was accomplished one 40 pound bag of earth at a time, up and down ordinary ladders.


63 posted on 12/01/2006 4:59:31 PM PST by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Thursday, November 16, 2006 https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep

You could carry it up in 30 lb baskets. It would be rather quick to construct.

I think they are right.


64 posted on 12/01/2006 5:02:45 PM PST by TexanToTheCore (DE)
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To: TexanToTheCore

Why mold it into blocks at all, then? Why not just do flat layers?


65 posted on 12/01/2006 5:11:22 PM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep
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To: hinckley buzzard

To burn enough lime for a large pyramid, one would need A LOT of wood. An 8 megaton pyramid - say, 2000000 ton of lime. 20 years time frame. 100000 tons of lime a year, 300 tons of lime a day, something like 1000 tons of wood per day. Egyptian expeditions to upper Nile were never large enough to pull out this kind of logging. And Egyptians in Lebanon date to much later times.


66 posted on 12/01/2006 5:14:33 PM PST by GSlob
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To: cripplecreek

Zahi "Zowie" Hawass also has claimed that the number of stones in the Great Pyramid (Khufu, a.k.a. Cheops) is more like 500,000, compared with 2.5 million which is commonly believed, or more than (I think it was) 4 million calculated by someone writing in KMT a few years ago. Hawass also claimed that the size of the stones is something like 1000 pounds each, instead of 2+ tons as is commonly thought.

The logistical problems of dragging 2 1/2 ton stones up sand ramps (one wrapped around the whole structure, or whatever), plus the stones which are much larger, plus the now-missing facing stones (stripped by some caliph during the Middle Ages) in the 20 year time frame attributed to its construction creates these kinds of problems.


67 posted on 12/01/2006 5:15:09 PM PST by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Thursday, November 16, 2006 https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: PRND21

Ewwww. LOL!


68 posted on 12/01/2006 5:33:13 PM PST by L98Fiero (The media as a self-licking ice-cream cone)
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep

Because it would require getting the lime uptop too quickly.

That is my guess.


69 posted on 12/01/2006 5:37:43 PM PST by TexanToTheCore (DE)
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To: hinckley buzzard; GSlob
Plus, depending on how old the pyramids actually are, Egypt was very lush when first settled, desertification happening later (Creationist, in case you're wondering). The same with Sumer. Why would the two most powerful civilizations settle what today is (in terms of climate) relatively cruddy land?

P.S. During the Ice Age.

70 posted on 12/01/2006 5:38:39 PM PST by Jedi Master Pikachu ( For the Republic.)
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu
Why would the two most powerful civilizations settle what today is (in terms of climate) relatively cruddy land?

Well, in Egypt's case, the land in the immediate Nile Valley isn't that cruddy, and the annual flood would replenish it. In Roman times, Egypt was considered a breadbasket and its exported grain fed much of the empire. Combine that with the security that the surrounding deserts provided from aggressive neighbors and Egypt becomes a pretty attractive place.

71 posted on 12/01/2006 5:48:23 PM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep
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To: Jedi Master Pikachu

see # 66. Where are the ruins of gigantic industrial lime kilns? The lime works would themselves be the size of a pyramid. And if it was done in mom-and pop ovens, then multiply the fuel amount by 2 or 3.


72 posted on 12/01/2006 5:48:46 PM PST by GSlob
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To: RGSpincich

I read a fun book about along those lines. The ancient Egyptians may have built simple cranes for the purposes of transporting limestone blocks. The book title, which is the first difficult bit to swallow, is:

"HOW TO BUILD A FLYING SAUCER: AND OTHER PROPOSALS IN SPECULATIVE ENGINEERING"
by T. B. Pawlicki

includes sketches for cranes that could have transported the pyramid stones to Giza as well as some investigation as to what might have survived thousands of years later, such as large rounded stones with holes in them that are currently used as grinding/millstones.


73 posted on 12/01/2006 6:05:55 PM PST by Kevmo (Darn, if only I had signed up 4 days earlier, I'd have a 3-digit Freeper #)
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To: Rodney King
Um. Doesn't the Bible speak of the pyramids being made from concrete? See Exodus 5....
74 posted on 12/01/2006 6:19:07 PM PST by Theo (Global warming "scientists." Pro-evolution "scientists." They're both wrong.)
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To: GSlob

Lime kilns are a later technology. The article says that they may have dissolved soft limestone in ponds of water and then taken the resulting slurry uptop to pour it in the molds.

This really looks possible. The Egyptians were quite good stone workers. Their word for potter was actually "stone worker".


75 posted on 12/01/2006 6:29:09 PM PST by TexanToTheCore (DE)
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To: MIchaelTArchangel; Rodney King
"...according to a new Franco-American study."

Gee, I think I ate that spaghetti which was about the consistency of concrete.

And probably made about the same time.

76 posted on 12/01/2006 6:42:09 PM PST by uglybiker (Don't look at me. I didn't make you stupid.)
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To: doug from upland; RightWhale
Art and George wouldn't care.

Richard Hoagland on the other hand.....

77 posted on 12/01/2006 6:44:06 PM PST by uglybiker (Don't look at me. I didn't make you stupid.)
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To: TexanToTheCore
"The article says that they may have dissolved soft limestone in ponds of water and then taken the resulting slurry uptop to pour it in the molds."
Then they would have ended up with a soft chalk, similar to what was used in elementary school on a blackboard. Now, how long would a chalk pyramid stand there before being ground to dust by blowing sand? And the grave robbers, too, would have long ago made every pyramid into a big Swiss cheeze, all full of holes.
78 posted on 12/01/2006 7:06:51 PM PST by GSlob
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To: GSlob

cheeze=cheese. Adjacent keys typo, more caffeine needed.


79 posted on 12/01/2006 7:09:51 PM PST by GSlob
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To: L98Fiero
I wonder what Sophocles used as a ring-tone?

Just a guess, but probably "All you need is love"

One word frees us of all the weight and pain in life.
That word is love.*

*Sophocles

80 posted on 12/01/2006 7:23:31 PM PST by harrowup (Eyes had a NassCAR wuntz; bettern' ma first; but not da bestest.)
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