Libertarian ping! To be added or removed from my ping list freepmail me or post a message here.
Posted on 11/16/2006 1:21:07 PM PST by zarf
You are not mistaken in believing that drugs are a scourge that is devastating our society. You are not mistaken in believing that drugs are tearing asunder our social fabric, ruining the lives of many young people, and imposing heavy costs on some of the most disadvantaged among us.
You are not mistaken in believing that the majority of the public share your concerns. In short, you are not mistaken in the end you seek to achieve. Your mistake is failing to recognize that the very measures you favor are a major source of the evils you deplore. Of course the problem is demand, but it is not only demand, it is demand that must operate through repressed and illegal channels. Illegality creates obscene profits that finance the murderous tactics of the drug lords; illegality leads to the corruption of law enforcement officials; illegality monopolizes the efforts of honest law forces so that they are starved for resources to fight the simpler crimes of robbery, theft and assault.
Drugs are a tragedy for addicts. But criminalizing their use converts that tragedy into a disaster for society, for users and non-users alike. Our experience with the prohibition of drugs is a replay of our experience with the prohibition of alcoholic beverages.
Libertarian ping! To be added or removed from my ping list freepmail me or post a message here.
"Drugs are a tragedy for addicts. But criminalizing their use converts that tragedy into a disaster for society, for users and non-users alike."
(whoops meant to put this the post above)
"I don't think he showed much wisdom on this subject.
It's true, the WOD is creating a criminal justice nightmare.
But a complete legalization of all drugs would create a public health nightmare."
Most illicit drugs are already highly available to anyone who wants to use them, so legalization wouldn't change the situation much. On the other hand, what drives the pushers is "obscene profit".
Dear Nanny Staters (of ALL stripes):
Keep out of my life in every way, shape and form; keep your laws off MY body and my kids and my neighbors; and, in return, I won't feel a need to track you down and unscrew your head and shiite down your neck, whoever and wherever you are. Fair deal?
Love and kisses,
DC
Dear Nanny Staters (of ALL stripes):
Keep out of my life in every way, shape and form; keep your laws off MY body and my kids and my neighbors; and, in return, I won't feel a need to track you down and unscrew your head and shiite down your neck, whoever and wherever you are. Fair deal?
Love and kisses,
DC
Yes.... and only $4 for the generic.
Attempted?
You've already co-opted out a response!
#118
Howdy, Ken! Great to see you too!
I always get in trouble on these 'drug threads'. I'm straight Libertarian when it comes to drugs, and upon reflection, most things! Your statistics bear out what everyone knows - a small percentage of ALL people will choose to alter their reality with something, and there is nothing that is going to change that fact! If ALL drugs of All kinds were to VANISH tomorrow morning, there would be people spinning around in circles by noon, just to get dizzy and change the way they feel. Most of them would be dimocRATS.
My solution is simple - nothing is illegal. NOTHING!
Any person can go to any pharmacy and buy any drug without a prescription. The pharmacists only obligation is to give the buyer a piece of paper listing what the drug is, how to take it, what it can do, and any possible side effects! That's it! Obligation satisfied, and that's good law!
(My favourite part) Now, the Free Market takes over. All manufacturers must meet exact standards (like MIL Specs) for all their products. Now that they're legal, they pay taxes!
They also compete, and the prices go down to where they should be! The government keeps the taxes low enough so that there is no profit to be made outside the system.
The retailers pay taxes! Same government response.
The DEA is disarmed and disbanded. No illegality - no drug crimes. No drug crimes - no drug criminals. Those convicted of drug crimes get out of jail. Unemployment goes up temporarily, so put the former DEA folks and drug criminals to work building the fence along our Southern border. When it's done, deport all the illegals and their offspring back to their country of origin, and give those jobs to the former DEA and former drug criminals. They should be qualified to handle those jobs anyway.
Hospitals and doctors are still in business, and anyone with a brain knows how that works.
It doesn't matter what anyone wants to swallow, snort, sniff, inject, or stick up their butt. It doesn't matter if it's crack, horse, grass, hash, crank, meth, rose hips, antibiotics, or whatever any of that stuff is called. I don't give a rats-ass! It's their business, and nobody elses!
Any Corporation, Company, Candy Store, or Street Vendor is free to make their own rules for their employees regarding drug use, drug testing, penalties, etc., because it's THEIR business, and nobody elses.
Today, it is legal for anyone to grow their own tobacco, harvest it, cure it, chop it, cut it, and roll it into cigarettes, but nobody bothers to do it because it's a lot easier to just buy a pack of tailor-mades, even with the high taxes levied on it. That's OK!
Today, it is legal for anyone to make their own wine and beer for themselves, and many people do just that. That's OK too!
It is NOT legal for anyone to make their own distilled ethyl alcohol for themselves. (Google 'Whiskey Rebellion') The government overtaxes Hard Liquor, so there still is some profit to be made by making and selling booze illegally, but it's not very common anymore.
Well, that's how my world would work, Ken. If my plan was FULLY implemented, the percentage of junkies would not change appreciably, but the numbers of drug-lawbreakers would drop to ZERO! The LEO's could then use their resources going after the REAL criminals - murderers, rapists, car thieves, Ken Lays, etc.
Our Governments' 'War on Drugs' is really a 'War on Citizens', using our own hard-earned taxes against us, with little to show for it! It's way past time for the government to admit to themselves that their drug laws don't work, and to decriminalize ALL of them, and eliminate them!
Gambling is taking care of itself, so next week, I'll solve Prostitution! Stay well armed and safe, old friend, and............FRegards
They didn't "drift" into anything - wars broke out in the mafia ranks leading to new leadership
Perhaps a corollary but not necessarily causation. Wars in the mafia ranks kills off mafia members. And that's supposed to be a bad thing? The alcohol wars caused several times more destruction to innocent lives and property than the "mafia wars" that followed repeal of prohibition.
and a new direction including prostitution and the heroin trade mainly.
Building Las Vegas from a desert pit to bustling entertainment center too. Those are mostly non-violent crimes except for the heroin trade which is facilitated by heroin prohibition, as I stated in post 102: "Did organized crime drift into the illicit drug prohibition business?" Prostitution and heroin trade were present prior to prohibition and throughout. Prohibition facilitated the start-up of alcohol wars by organized crime. Organized crime and alcohol dealers loved prohibition for the easy profits. As do today's drug cartels, drug lords, dealers and terrorist groups funded by illicit opium trade.
elenil21: It depends..if the punishment is harsh enough - there is something called deterrence! 105
Zon: Do you acknowledge the point I put forth when I wrote "When a bank robber or murderer is taken off the streets it's the end of the problem. When a drug dealer is sent to jail there's ten drug dealers fighting to take over the old dealers turf." 102
as for the other point of discussion---I think I already answered it in 105
So your answer is that you didn't acknowledge the point I made -- that taking a bank robber off the street doesn't create a job opportunity for other would be robbers but taking a drug dealer off the street creates a job opportunity for ten other people to move in and take over the drug-turf. I get that you don't want to acknowledge the difference. Not to mention that murder and bank robbery are violent crimes whereas drug possession, use and dealing are consensual crimes. With violent crimes the victim is a victim because they are not free to chose to walk away and not associate with the criminal. Whereas the consensual crime of drug dealing all persons are free to chose to walk away and not associate.
* * *
Ending the WOD solves the crime and violence problem. No more turf wars. No more theft to buy the next over-priced fix. No more shoot-outs in the streets claiming innocent persons that happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Law enforcement can focus on violent crimes like robbery, rape, assault, terrorists, etc.
After ending the WOD and violent crime it facilitates the drug problem can be fully addressed. It will be a challenge. But know this, tobacco/nicotine use -- perhaps the most addictive drug -- has been cut by 50% since 1990. How was that accomplished? Education.
Government cannot protect people from themselves. Nor is it possible for government to even protect people from criminals. Else wise a cell phone would be sufficient rather than concealed carry of a gun. Not to mention that several courts have ruled that the job responsibility of the police is to enforce the law, not protect the individual from criminals.
If a person supports drug prohibition and the WOD based on moral-religious grounds because their religion says recreational drug use is bad, say so and get that out in the open.
Drug prohibition has the same result as alcohol prohibition. A sign of a person being delusional is doing the same thing and expecting different result.
I’d like to offer one small correction. It IS legal for one to make his own distilled liquor. The government has strict limits on the amount you may make, but you may make it.
That's stupid defeatist talk from Milton Friedman. Start executing the drug pushers and smugglers. That's how you win the war on drugs
MF is showing his foolish libertarian side here
Alcohol prohibition caused the use of other drugs to expand. The use of pot increased drastically during alcohol prohibition and dropped after repeal. It increased again in the 1960s.
Screw that cr@p...it's your choice, it's your problem. The freedom to mess up your life cannot come with a voucher on mine.
You got an out-of-control drug problem, fix it or die. That's the flip side of of the freedoms libertarians claim.
Of course, those on the left who are pushing for legalization are also pushing to define drug addiction as a protected disability.
Sooner or later, we'll have to come to grips with the fact that our disagreements about drugs are another front in the conflict of world views between libs and conservatives...the culture war, if you will.
Actually, those who push for legalization assert it's no problem at all. Which is it?
Any serious philosopher would assert that drug use is immoral.
HAH!!! How many will 'get' that comment?
What brand would you care to sport? Blackbird.
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