Posted on 11/16/2006 4:57:59 AM PST by radar101
You are assuming the version in the student paper that the man was on his way out is true. What if he was not leaving and in fact went limp as the officers attempted to escort him out as the officers claim?
Hey, come on. You obviously haven't read "The art of war" by Sun Tzu. If you had you would know that Sun Tzu was a great American police officer.
I think I'm going to start my own newspaper advice column, just for cops: "Dear Sun Tzu"
I've been absent for awhile so I started reading some of these posts.
Did you say 'goose-neck' his wrist? You gotta be kidding me. Where I come from if you try to goose-neck somebody's wrist he's going to goose-neck your teeth down your throat.
Then you advocate hitting him with a baton? We were given tazer's so we didn't have to use those brutal batons.
And drawing your gun???
Our dept. has bought into the wimpy cop mentality. You know, 'black jacks are cruel', 'baton strikes and punches in the nose might hurt somebody.' "We don't need a jail." "People need re-hab instead of punishment."
So what'd they do? They bought "pepper spray" the end all. The junk don't work.
Now we have the tazer so we look more humane. Another joke. Instead of grabbing somebody, like they should, officers now reach for their tazer at the first hint of battle.
And I think it's a mistake. And the only ones who win are ambulance chasing lawyers.
It's almost not worth being a cop anymore.
Dear Sun Tzu:
I have a problem. I am currently on foot patrol and there are these mean gang members who constantly shoot at me and otherwise make me nervous and upset. My bullet proof vest is starting to show signs of wear and tear and I am afraid that someday I might acutally have to remove my less than lethal weapon from my holster and cause pain to one of these poor young men.
How can I stop them from shooting at me. Should I offer them candy? If I asked them really nice to stop shooting at me do you think that might help? Most of the time all I am able to do under our current rules of engagement is to duck and run and then call for backup, who usually come and duck and run alongside me.
Again this is becoming a serious problem. I don't want to cause any pain to these people as it might cause me to lose my job and it might turn these fine young men into millionaires and what good would that do if they don't share their wealth with me.
What do you suggest.
LA Cop.
Most Dear LA Cop,
Sun Tzu will now throw secret Pearls of Wisdom at your tired foot patrol feet.
Sun Tzu regret to inform you that you live in Liberal Mecca of People's Republic of California. And, sad to say, Liberal theology spreading rapidly from Sea to Shining Sea. As evidenced by ningcompoops on thread.
But, be of light heart, take one of the shining paths that I am about to show you.
Sun Tzu say, path number one: "You takie Fire Dept. Test." Everybody love Fire Dept.
Path number two: "Study for Federal Law Enforcement job, where you will not have to deal with mean gang member and they show you ancient self-defense secrets, such as the highly effective 'goose-neck' to the wrist.'
Finally grasshopper, come to my secret school, where you will learn the ways of Neo in 'The Matrix' and you will be able to dodge nasty bullets, pluck the weapons from your enemies goose-necked hand and replace it with the Golden crack pipe.
Once gang member have golden crack pipe he can move out of Socialist Democrat 'hood and into Socialist Democrat Politician 'hood.
Then my LA Cop friend, things will change very quickly.
Peace out. Sun Shizzle Tzu
yes but the results clear quickly once the current stops.
Please provide a link to how fast most people are able to stand afterward. Also, are there outliers, and what percentage are unable to stand after 3, 5, or 10 minutes? I'm not sure how long the video lasted, but I don't think it was more than 10 minutes, and supposedly the offender was tasered 5 times.
The bottom line is that I haven't been able to find anything definitive on how fast most people recover, so I still question whether this guy could simply stand up after being tasered. From the medical literature, I know that tasers aren't as "safe" as many make them out to be. They are a good choice for many situations, a great alternative to deadly force in certain cases, but not for casual use.
Hello, and welcome to FR, I see it is your first day. Nice place.
I am not offended, after 20 years on a police dept. most cops are impervious to offense. Besides, donut build up in the ear canals gives us hearing problems.
I have not seen the video. Just hearing the story I can read between the lines. I did read some of the security account.
The problem, in my opinion, and I may have rambled on about it on this thread, is the policy of police depts to use "nicey" things to gain control of non-compliant folks.
For instance, when I first started, we carried black jacks. If you hit someone with a jack and they only received 3 or less stitches, you we're considered less than manly. 4 to 8 was average and 9 and above was the ideal.
Well, the days of men being men came to an end. Guys used to lip off to the cops, take a swing at the cops, fight with the cops, get corrected and that was the end of it.
These are now referred to as 'the good old days.'
Enter the ambulance chaser. Enter the 'civil rights violation' federal government. Enter the law-suit.
So, out went 'the jack' and in came 'the pepper spray.' Everybody play nice. Well, the pepper spray didn't work. Enter 'The Tazer.'
Enter police Policy's and procedures of police departments that dictate what you will use when met with force.
I prefer my judo, sambo and grappling over 'The Tazer.' Most young police officers though, from my experience and personal observation, prefer 'The Tazer.'
Now, enter the dilemma. People who think that they have 'the right' to break the law, speak in any manner they deem appropriate and then run to an ambulance chaser after they are introduced to reality.
Now Sun Tzu must go cook up a mess 'o Lake Erie Yellow Perch.
I noticed that you suggested that I become a fireman. I don't know if you know it or not but the LA City council just settled a case for 2.7 million dollars against The LA City Fire Department because a black fireman (who called himself "The Big Dog") was given a spoonful of dog food in his spaghetti after a Volley Ball game where he continually taunted his fellow firefighters to: "Feed the Big Dog."
I fear that if I join the fire department (being a white guy and all) that if I were to be at all humorous during my down time, that I could get fired and subject my nearly bankrupt city to new lawsuits that could threaten my new career as a firefighter.
Now if, as you suggest, I learned the ways of Matrix and was able to pluck weapons from the hands of these gang members, don't you think I might accidentally cause injury to their trigger fingers and then destroy my career and further bankrupt my employer?
And what if one of the bullets bounces off my vest and accidentally ricochets back at the gang member and he gets hurt? What kind of trouble could I be in then?
And if, as you suggest, I give a gang member a crack pipe and he breaks it and cuts his lip, then couldn't I be personally liable under some kind of products liability lawsuit?
Oh great war sage, please help me.
Desperately yours,
LA Cop
"Please provide a link to how fast most people are able to stand afterward. Also, are there outliers, and what percentage are unable to stand after 3, 5, or 10 minutes?"
He was able to scream and shout. That involves muscles to reach the volume this guy did reach. Its also posted elsewhere that the tazors were set on "motivate" and not "stun" they would have had less impact.
Dear Sun & Cop,
The object is not for you to die for your city. It's for the other SOB to die for his city.
Have the LA Cops be Criminals and have the Criminals be Cops. Then the criminals can off the cops.
And it'll be legal. (Doc Holliday)
Patton Out
Velveeta, thanks for posting the rest of that story. He stared immediately encouraging students to resist? Isn't that odd? Now instead of a rule-breaker, he is a perpetrator. And then, such a surprise, a victim of his own belligerence.
"For instance, when I first started, we carried black jacks. If you hit someone with a jack and they only received 3 or less stitches, you we're considered less than manly. 4 to 8 was average and 9 and above was the ideal."
Didn't I just read somewhere that 1 in 3 Lorain police officers have been sued or disciplined since 2000?
Something I just found from a PoliceOne.com columnist, Captain Greg Meyer (ret): "The problematic TASER incidentsones that cost you headlines, internal investigations, and lawsuitsare frequently incidents where the officer is trying to achieve compliance with the officers directions, as opposed to trying to achieve control of an actively or aggressively and physically resisting suspect."
Here is a nice video to watch. It is a Marine considered to be the toughest guy alive. Listen to what he says about being tasered at the end:
http://www.dump.com/ufmre/
"I have never been hit with something like that, that could knock me on my ass and I can't continue to do anything but just lay there like a little baby"
http://www.dump.com/vhvpe/
ANother good video to watch. There are a couple of people (not sure if they are police or not) who took two shots and rode the full 5 seconds and got right back up.
So basically the taser itself hurts like hell, but the effects seem rather short lived.
So I guess you could argue that there is no reason why he could not have gotten back up right away and comply with their request. However, I still feel using this type of force to make a person comply when you have not tried other options is abusive. I'm not saying this student didn't deserve it, however I have seen many other techniques work just as well. It's not like this kid was armed or swinging at police, he was simply not complying with requests.
Trust me when I say, I do not envy anyone who goe sinto law enforcement as it is a very dangerous and unrewarding job. I weep for many of our officers who have sufferred at the hands of many arrogant and disprespectful people. I also undrstand that job stress can play a huge roll. After deling with 6 kids in a day I am ready to start playing soccor with thier butts and start sending them (punting actually) to their rooms for bed.
I can only imagine how a full day of listening to beligerant people can make a situation get out of hand quickly.
All in all I feel the young man was wrong and deserved what he got. I just wish the police had had a better chance to do things without the escalation. I don't like tasers, but if it is going to save your life, the life of the peron you are delaing with and everyone get home safe that night, I say let them spark.
Sorry about tha harsh cock and balls statement. It was probably out of line. I don't know what I would have done in that sitaution personally.
What about 'refused' to show his ID? That is a step beyond not carrying ID. Bad decision on his part -- it is a simple request. Maybe it interfered with a plan he had....
Ah, LA Cop, you have much to learn.
'The Big Dog' attended Sun Tzu's secret school of frivolous lawsuit. Sun Tzu would eat the dog food for 2.7 MILL... Did you say 2.7 Mill?? For a taste of dog food??
In the words of Napoleon Dynamite: "lucky"
Sun Tzu has noted that you are at a serious disadvantage in the race category. Though you may still play the 'transgender' card should you go to the Fire Dept.
So many liability questions have made Sun Tzu sleepy. Much yellow perch has also severely impaired Sun Tzu's thinking. I must go ponder these questions at my leisure before I go to off-duty job.
Sun Tzu has a headache.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.