Posted on 10/20/2006 8:52:20 PM PDT by SirLinksalot
Let's all stop beating Basil's car
Ask people why they support the death penalty or prolonged incarceration for serious crimes, and the reasons they give will usually involve retribution. There may be passing mention of deterrence or rehabilitation, but the surrounding rhetoric gives the game away. People want to kill a criminal as payback for the horrible things he did. Or they want to give "satisfaction' to the victims of the crime or their relatives. An especially warped and disgusting application of the flawed concept of retribution is Christian crucifixion as "atonement' for "sin'.
Retribution as a moral principle is incompatible with a scientific view of human behaviour. As scientists, we believe that human brains, though they may not work in the same way as man-made computers, are as surely governed by the laws of physics. When a computer malfunctions, we do not punish it. We track down the problem and fix it, usually by replacing a damaged component, either in hardware or software.
Basil Fawlty, British television's hotelier from hell created by the immortal John Cleese, was at the end of his tether when his car broke down and wouldn't start. He gave it fair warning, counted to three, gave it one more chance, and then acted. "Right! I warned you. You've had this coming to you!" He got out of the car, seized a tree branch and set about thrashing the car within an inch of its life. Of course we laugh at his irrationality. Instead of beating the car, we would investigate the problem. Is the carburettor flooded? Are the sparking plugs or distributor points damp? Has it simply run out of gas? Why do we not react in the same way to a defective man: a murderer, say, or a rapist? Why don't we laugh at a judge who punishes a criminal, just as heartily as we laugh at Basil Fawlty? Or at King Xerxes who, in 480 BC, sentenced the rough sea to 300 lashes for wrecking his bridge of ships? Isn't the murderer or the rapist just a machine with a defective component? Or a defective upbringing? Defective education? Defective genes?
Concepts like blame and responsibility are bandied about freely where human wrongdoers are concerned. When a child robs an old lady, should we blame the child himself or his parents? Or his school? Negligent social workers? In a court of law, feeble-mindedness is an accepted defence, as is insanity. Diminished responsibility is argued by the defence lawyer, who may also try to absolve his client of blame by pointing to his unhappy childhood, abuse by his father, or even unpropitious genes (not, so far as I am aware, unpropitious planetary conjunctions, though it wouldn't surprise me).
But doesn't a truly scientific, mechanistic view of the nervous system make nonsense of the very idea of responsibility, whether diminished or not? Any crime, however heinous, is in principle to be blamed on antecedent conditions acting through the accused's physiology, heredity and environment. Don't judicial hearings to decide questions of blame or diminished responsibility make as little sense for a faulty man as for a Fawlty car?
Why is it that we humans find it almost impossible to accept such conclusions? Why do we vent such visceral hatred on child murderers, or on thuggish vandals, when we should simply regard them as faulty units that need fixing or replacing? Presumably because mental constructs like blame and responsibility, indeed evil and good, are built into our brains by millennia of Darwinian evolution. Assigning blame and responsibility is an aspect of the useful fiction of intentional agents that we construct in our brains as a means of short-cutting a truer analysis of what is going on in the world in which we have to live. My dangerous idea is that we shall eventually grow out of all this and even learn to laugh at it, just as we laugh at Basil Fawlty when he beats his car. But I fear it is unlikely that I shall ever reach that level of enlightenment.
Wasn't much of one.... :^)
Thanks, FreedomProtector!
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe..... For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 1 Cor 1:19-21,25
Don't hold yer breath.
>>This guy is a piece of work. Now it was the *law* as given by Moses that set for the death penalty for specific law breaking. Christ said he came NOT to change one jot or tittle (Matthew 5:18) of the law that means the law is still in effect.
Yes I know that many Christians claim the *law* was fulfilled but they are wrong.<<
That is intereting, because the Matthew 5: 17,18 actually says, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."
If these people are wrong, what do you suppose Jesus meant he was fulfilling?
If the purpose in life is to direct ones future evolution, and people are nothing more then intellectual animals, then
there is no difference to helping an elderly lady across the street, or running her over because she is "unfit".
Our conscience tells us otherwise, there are Laws are written on our conscience. Objective value, what makes a hero a hero, or a villian a villan, the laws written on our heart imply a Lawgiver.
>>So what laws were fulfilled in Christ coming?<
He didn't say laws. He said law. For me, that means ALL of it.
>>Oh that one remember the Sabbath to keep it holy, well Sabbath means rest and Christ became our Sabbath, we are to rest in him every day not just one day of the week.<<
On that we agree 100%!
So you think the commandment against murder is no longer in effect? Or any of the rest of the commandments?
>>Your translation does not quite capture what Christ said.<<
I think you mean it does not quite capture exactly how the KJV translates the Greek. They are both close enough though. ;)
>>So you think the commandment against murder is no longer in effect? Or any of the rest of the commandments?<<
Far from it. Paul argues this much better than I can. Actually, Jesus made them even more difficult with his remarks about things like hating your brother (murder) and looking at a woman in lust (adultery). He clarified in those remarks just how valuable His sacrifice is, and just who needs it.
So if the law remains in effect and Paul does call it our school master and Christ says to say (teach) other wise is enough to make one last in the Kingdom of heaven, then what does fulfill mean?
"...then what does fulfill mean?"
It is a covenant thing. It is like making the last payment on a purchase agreement. It is fulfilled.
Heck, according to Dictionary.com:
1. to carry out, or bring to realization, as a prophecy or promise.
2. to perform or do, as duty; obey or follow, as commands.
3. to satisfy (requirements, obligations, etc.): a book that fulfills a long-felt need.
4. to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time: He felt that life was over when one had fulfilled his threescore years and ten.
Are you not overlooking that Christ said he was not come to destroy the LAW or the PROPHETS??? The Prophets are the ones who did the penning of foretelling of His coming and Christ continually quotes the Prophets. He had much to say about Moses who is described as the LAW giver as well as a prophet.
NO.
I eat pork, if that's what you mean.
Now I know what this scary fascist Dawkins is: a faulty unit! But I can't find any parts at Home Depot to fix him.
Related Link: Alister McGrath wants the world to know that Richard Dawkins is wrong: good science is not tantamount to atheism.
I would agree. Few evols would.
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