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Fact, Fable, and Darwin
One America ^ | 09-2004 | Rodney Stark

Posted on 09/15/2006 3:39:45 PM PDT by ofwaihhbtn

Fact, Fable, and Darwin

By Rodney Stark

I write as neither a creationist nor a Darwinist, but as one who knows what is probably the most disreputable scientific secret of the past century: There is no plausible scientific theory of the origin of species! Darwin himself was not sure he had produced one, and for many decades every competent evolutionary biologist has known that he did not. Although the experts have kept quiet when true believers have sworn in court and before legislative bodies that Darwin's theory is proven beyond any possible doubt, that's not what reputable biologists, including committed Darwinians, have been saying to one another.

Without question, Charles Darwin would be among the most prominent biologists in history even if he hadn't written The Origin of Species in 1859. But he would not have been deified in the campaign to "enlighten" humanity. The battle over evolution is not an example of how heroic scientists have withstood the relentless persecution of religious fanatics. Rather, from the very start it primarily has been an attack on religion by militant atheists who wrap themselves in the mantle of science.

When a thoroughly ideological Darwinist like Richard Dawkins claims, "The theory is about as much in doubt as that the earth goes round the sun," he does not state a fact, but merely aims to discredit a priori anyone who dares to express reservations about evolution. Indeed, Dawkins has written, "It is absolutely safe to say that, if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid, or insane...."

That is precisely how "Darwin's Bulldog," Thomas Huxley, hoped intellectuals would react when he first adopted the tactic of claiming that the only choice is between Darwin and Bible literalism. However, just as one can doubt Max Weber's Protestant Ethic thesis without thereby declaring for Marxism, so too one may note the serious shortcomings of neo-Darwinism without opting for any rival theory. Modern physics provides a model of how science benefits from being willing to live with open questions rather than embracing obviously flawed conjectures.

What is most clear to me is that the Darwinian Crusade does not prove some basic incompatibility between religion and science. But the even more immediate reality is that Darwin's theory falls noticeably short of explaining the origin of species. Dawkins knows the many serious problems that beset a purely materialistic evolutionary theory, but asserts that no one except true believers in evolution can be allowed into the discussion, which also must be held in secret. Thus he chastises Niles Eldridge and Stephen Jay Gould, two distinguished fellow Darwinians, for giving "spurious aid and comfort to modern creationists."

Dawkins believes that, regardless of his or her good intentions, "if a reputable scholar breathes so much as a hint of criticism of some detail of Darwinian theory, that fact is seized upon and blown up out of proportion." While acknowledging that "the extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record" is a major embarrassment for Darwinism, Stephen Jay Gould confided that this has been held as a "trade secret of paleontology" and acknowledged that the evolutionary diagrams "that adorn our textbooks" are based on "inference...not the evidence of fossils."

According to Steven Stanley, another distinguished evolutionist, doubts raised by the fossil record were "suppressed" for years. Stanley noted that this too was a tactic begun by Huxley, always careful not to reveal his own serious misgivings in public. Paleontologist Niles Eldridge and his colleagues have said that the history of life demonstrates gradual transformations of species, "all the while really knowing that it does not." This is not how science is conducted; it is how ideological crusades are run.

By Darwin's day it had long been recognized that the fossil evidence showed that there had been a progression in the biological complexity of organisms over an immense period of time. In the oldest strata, only simple organisms are observed. In more recent strata, more complex organisms appear. The biological world is now classified into a set of nested categories. Within each genus (mammals, reptiles, etc.) are species (dogs, horses, elephants, etc.) and within each species are many specific varieties, or breeds (Great Dane, Poodle, Beagle, etc.).

It was well-known that selective breeding can create variations within species. But the boundaries between species are distinct and firm--one species does not simply trail off into another by degrees. As Darwin acknowledged, breeding experiments reveal clear limits to selective breeding beyond which no additional changes can be produced. For example, dogs can be bred to be only so big and no bigger, let alone be selectively bred until they are cats. Hence, the question of where species come from was the real challenge and, despite the title of his famous book and more than a century of hoopla and celebration, Darwin essentially left it unanswered.

After many years spent searching for an adequate explanation of the origin of species, in the end Darwin fell back on natural selection, claiming that it could create new creatures too, if given im-mense periods of time. That is, organisms respond to their environmental circumstances by slowly changing (evolving) in the direction of traits beneficial to survival until, eventually, they are sufficiently changed to constitute a new species. Hence, new species originate very slowly, one tiny change after another, and eventually this can result in lemurs changing to humans via many intervening species.

Darwin fully recognized that a major weakness of this account of the origin of species involved what he and others referred to as the principle of "gradualism in nature." The fossil record was utterly inconsistent with gradualism. As Darwin acknowledged: "...why, if species have descended from other species by fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined?"

Darwin offered two solutions. Transitional types are quickly replaced and hence would mainly only be observable in the fossil record. As for the lack of transitional types among the fossils, that was, Darwin admitted, "the most obvious and serious objection which can be urged against the theory."

Darwin dealt with this problem by blaming "the extreme imperfection of the geological record." "Only a small portion of the surface of the earth has been geologically explored, and no part with sufficient care." But, just wait, Darwin promised, the missing transitions will be found in the expected proportion when more research has been done. Thus began an intensive search for what the popular press soon called the "missing links."

Today, the fossil record is enormous compared to what it was in Darwin's day, but the facts are unchanged. The links are still missing; species appear suddenly and then remain relatively unchanged. As Steven Stanley reported: "The known fossil record...offers no evidence that the gradualistic model can be valid."

Indeed, the evidence has grown even more contrary since Darwin's day. "Many of the discontinuities [in the fossil record] tend to be more and more emphasized with increased collecting," noted the former curator of historical geology at the American Museum of Natural History. The history of most fossil species includes two features particularly inconsistent with gradualism, Stephen Jay Gould has acknowledged. The first problem is stasis. Most species exhibit no directional change during their tenure on earth. They appear in the fossil record looking much the same as when they disappear. The second problem is sudden appearance. Species do not arise gradually by the steady transformation of ancestors, they appear "fully formed."

These are precisely the objections raised by many biologists and geologists in Darwin's time--it was not merely that Darwin's claim that species arise through eons of natural selection was offered without supporting evidence, but that the available evidence was overwhelmingly contrary. Unfortunately, rather than concluding that a theory of the origin of species was yet to be accomplished, many scientists urged that Darwin's claims must be embraced, no matter what.

In keeping with Darwin's views, evolutionists have often explained new species as the result of the accumulation of tiny, favorable random mutations over an immense span of time. But this answer is inconsistent with the fossil record wherein creatures appear "full-blown and raring to go." Consequently, for most of the past century, biologists and geneticists have tried to discover how a huge number of favorable mutations can occur at one time so that a new species would appear without intermediate types.

However, as the eminent and committed Darwinist Ernst Mayr explained,The occurrence of genetic monstrosities by mutation...is well substantiated, but they are such evident freaks that these monsters can only be designated as 'hopeless.' They are so utterly unbalanced that they would not have the slightest chance of escaping elimination through selection. Giving a thrush the wings of a falcon does not make it a better flyer....To believe that such a drastic mutation would produce a viable new type, capable of occupying a new adaptive zone, is equivalent to believing in miracles.

The word miracle crops up again and again in mathematical assessments of the possibility that even very simple biochemical chains, let alone living organisms, can mutate into being by a process of random trial and error. For generations, Darwinians have regaled their students with the story of the monkey and the typewriter, noting that given an infinite period of time, the monkey sooner or later is bound to produce Macbeth purely by chance, the moral being that infinite time can perform miracles.

However, the monkey of random evolution does not have infinite time. The progression from simple to complex life forms on earth took place within a quite limited time. Moreover, when competent mathematicians considered the matter, they quickly calculated that even if the monkey's task were reduced to coming up with only a few lines of Macbeth, let alone Shakespeare's entire play, the probability is far, far beyond mathematical possibility. The odds of creating even the simplest organism at random are even more remote--Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe, celebrated cosmologists, calculated the odds as one in ten to the 40,000th power. (Consider that all atoms in the known universe are estimated to number no more than ten to the 80th power.) In this sense, then, Darwinian theory does rest on truly miraculous assumptions.

Perhaps the most amazing aspect of the current situation is that while Darwin is treated as a secular saint in the popular media and the theory of evolution is regarded as the invincible challenge to all religious claims, it is taken for granted among the leading biological scientists that the origin of species has yet to be explained. Writing in Nature in 1999, Eörs Szathmay summarizes that, "The origin of species has long fascinated biologists. Although Darwin's major work bears it as a title, it does not provide a solution to the problem." When Julian Huxley claimed that "Darwin's theory is...no longer a theory but a fact," he surely knew better. But, just like his grandfather, Thomas Huxley, he knew that his lie served the greater good of "enlightenment."

When The Origin of Species was published it aroused immense interest, but initially it did not provoke antagonism on religious grounds. Although many criticized Darwin's lack of evidence, none raised religious objections. Instead, the initial response from theologians was favorable. The distinguished Harvard botanist Asa Gray hailed Darwin for having solved the most difficult problem confronting the Design argument--the many imperfections and failures revealed in the fossil record. Acknowledging that Darwin himself "rejects the idea of design," Gray congratulated him for "bringing out the neatest illustrations of it." Gray interpreted Darwin's work as showing that God has created a few original forms and then let evolution proceed within the framework of divine laws.

When religious antagonism finally came it was in response to aggressive claims, like Huxley's, that Newton and Darwin together had evicted God from the cosmos. For the heirs of the Enlightenment, evolution seemed finally to supply the weapon needed to destroy religion. As Richard Dawkins confided, "Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist."

Atheism was central to the agenda of the Darwinians. Darwin himself once wrote that he could not understand how anyone could even wish that Christianity were true, noting that the doctrine of damnation was itself damnable. Huxley expressed his hostility toward religion often and clearly, writing in 1859: "My screed was meant as a protest against Theology & Parsondom...both of which are in my mind the natural & irreconcilable enemies of Science. Few see it but I believe we are on the Eve of a new Reformation and if I have a wish to live 30 years, it is to see the foot of Science on the necks of her Enemies." According to Oxford historian J. R. Lucas, Huxley was "remarkably resistant to the idea that there were clergymen who accepted evolution, even when actually faced with them." Quite simply, there could be no compromises with faith.

Writing at the same time as Huxley, the leading Darwinian in Germany, Ernst Haeckel, drew this picture:

On one side spiritual freedom and truth, reason and culture, evolution and progress stand under the bright banner of science; on the other side, under the black flag of hierarchy, stand spiritual slavery and falsehood, irrationality and barbarism, superstition and retrogression.... Evolution is the heavy artillery in the struggle for truth. Whole ranks of...sophistries fall together under the chain shot of this...artillery, and the proud and mighty structure of the Roman hierarchy, that powerful stronghold of infallible dogmatism, falls like a house of cards.

These were not the natterings of radical circles and peripheral publications. The author of the huge review of The Origin in the Times of London was none other than Thomas Huxley. He built his lectures on evolution into a popular touring stage show wherein he challenged various potential religious opponents by name. Is it surprising that religious people, scientists as well as clerics, began to respond in the face of unrelenting challenges like these issued in the name of evolution? It was not as if they merely were asked to accept that life had evolved--many theologians had long taken that for granted. What the Darwinians demanded was that religionists agree to the untrue and unscientific claim that Darwin had proved that God played no role in the process.

Among those drawn to respond was the Bishop of Oxford, Samuel Wilberforce, who is widely said to have made an ass of himself in a debate with Huxley during the 1860 meeting of the British Association at Oxford. The relevant account of this confrontation reported: "I was happy enough to be present on the memorable occasion at Oxford when Mr. Huxley bearded Bishop Wilberforce. The bishop arose and in a light scoffing tone, florid and fluent, he assured us that there was nothing in the idea of evolution. Then turning to his antagonist with a smiling insolence, he begged to know, was it through his grandfather or his grandmother that he claimed descent from a monkey? On this Mr. Huxley...arose...and spoke these tremendous words. He was not ashamed to have a monkey for an ancestor; but he would be ashamed to be connected with a man who used his great gifts to obscure the truth. No one doubted his meaning and the effect was tremendous."

This marvelous anecdote has appeared in every distinguished biography of Darwin and of Huxley, as well as in every popular history of the theory of evolution. In his celebrated Apes, Angels and Victorians, William Irvine used this tale to disparage the bishop's snobbery. In his prize-winning study, James Brix went much farther, describing Wilberforce as "naive and pompous," a man whose "faulty opinions" were those of a "fundamentalist creationist" and who provided Huxley with the opportunity to give evolution "its first major victory over dogmatism and duplicity." Every writer tells how the audience gave Huxley an ovation.

Trouble is, it never happened. The quotation above was the only such report of this story and it appeared in an article titled "A Grandmother's Tales" written by a non-scholar in a popular magazine 38 years after the alleged encounter. No other account of these meetings, and there were many written at the time, made any mention of remarks concerning Huxley's monkey ancestors, or claimed that he made a fool of the bishop. To the contrary, many thought the bishop had the better of it, and even many of the committed Darwinians thought it at most a draw.

Moreover, as all of the scholars present at Oxford knew, prior to the meeting, Bishop Wilberforce had penned a review of The Origin in which he fully acknowledged the principle of natural selection as the source of variations within species. He rejected Darwin's claims concerning the origin of species, however, and some of these criticisms were sufficiently compelling that Darwin immediately wrote his friend the botanist J. D. Hooker that the article "is uncommonly clever; it picks out with skill all the most conjectural parts, and brings forward well all the difficulties. It quizzes me quite splendidly." In a subsequent letter to geologist Charles Lyell, Darwin acknowledges that "the bishop makes a very telling case against me." Indeed, several of Wilberforce's comments caused Darwin to make modifications in a later revision of the book.

The tale of the foolish and narrow-minded bishop seems to have thrived as a revealing "truth" about the incompatibility of religion and science simply because many of its tellers wanted to believe that a bishop is wrong by nature. J. R. Lucas, who debunked the bishop myth, has suggested that the "most important reason why the legend grew" is, first, because academics generally "know nothing outside their own special subject" and therefore easily believe that outsiders are necessarily ignorant, and, second, because Huxley encouraged that conclusion. "The quarrel between religion and science was what Huxley wanted; and as Darwin's theory gained supporters, they took over his view of the incident."

Since then the Darwinian Crusade has tried to focus all attention on the most unqualified and most vulnerable opponents, and when no easy targets present themselves it has invented them. Huxley "made straw men of the 'creationists,'" as his biographer Desmond admitted. Even today it is a rare textbook or any popular treatment of evolution and religion that does not reduce "creationism" to the simplest caricatures.

This tradition remains so potent that whenever it is asked that evolution be presented as "only a theory," the requester is ridiculed as a buffoon. Even when the great philosopher of science Karl Popper suggested that the standard version of evolution even falls short of being a scientific theory, being instead an untestable tautology, he was subjected to public condemnations and much personal abuse.

Popper's tribulations illustrate an important basis for the victory of Darwinism: A successful appeal for a united front on the part of scientists to oppose religious opposition has had the consequence of silencing dissent within the scientific community. The eminent observer Everett Olson notes that there is "a generally silent group" of biological scientists "who tend to disagree with much of the current thought" about evolution, but who remain silent for fear of censure.

I believe that one day there will be a plausible theory of the origin of species. But, if and when that occurs, there will be nothing in any such theory that makes it impossible to propose that the principles involved were not part of God's great design any more than such a theory will demonstrate the existence of God. But, while we wait, why not lift the requirement that high school texts enshrine Darwin's failed attempt as an eternal truth?

Rodney Stark was professor of sociology at the University of Washington for many years and is now university professor of the social sciences at Baylor University. He is author of For the Glory of God (Princeton University Press) and other acclaimed books on science and religion.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: atheism; christianmythology; crevolist; evolution; genesis1; mythology; superstition; thebibleistruth
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To: Morgan in Denver
"read Ann Coulters new book"

There are many other good books that point out the serious flaws in the evolution tale. Of course all are being ruthlessly suppressed by people like the ones flooding this discussion. Like the democrats, all questions about their religion are immediately attacked often in a personally insulting manner. Darwinism is going down, they just don't know it yet.
221 posted on 09/16/2006 6:49:05 AM PDT by razzle
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To: razzle
Mr. coyote, can you even read the writings of your heroes like Gould who said there is no evidence in the fossil record (for macroevolution), and other darwinists who admit that they cannot disprove irreducible complexity or show a plausible explanation of the origin of a cell. How can you as a rational human (descended from an ape of course) believe all this conjecture is a fact and continue to disparage anyone who questions the darwin "science"; and make up stories to fool school children that you know are false.

Six years in grad school studying the subject.

And that's Dr. Coyote to you, son.

222 posted on 09/16/2006 7:13:17 AM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: razzle
Mr. coyote, can you even read the writings of your heroes like Gould who said there is no evidence in the fossil record (for macroevolution)...

Gould expounded on people like you in this 1994 article. Relevant highlights:

Faced with these facts of evolution and the philosophical bankruptcy of their own position, creationists rely upon distortion and innuendo to buttress their rhetorical claim. If I sound sharp or bitter, indeed I am—for I have become a major target of these practices.
Can you tell he's talking to you yet? Reading on...

I count myself among the evolutionists who argue for a jerky, or episodic, rather than a smoothly gradual, pace of change. In 1972 my colleague Niles Eldredge and I developed the theory of punctuated equilibrium. We argued that two outstanding facts of the fossil record—geologically "sudden" origin of new species and failure to change thereafter (stasis)—reflect the predictions of evolutionary theory, not the imperfections of the fossil record...
Clue for the clue-impaired: "geologically sudden" is not "suddenly one day." PE is a Darwinian theory of gradual (but non-uniform) change.

In most theories, small isolated populations are the source of new species, and the process of speciation takes thousands or tens of thousands of years. This amount of time, so long when measured against our lives, is a geological microsecond. It represents much less than 1 per cent of the average life-span for a fossil invertebrate species—more than ten million years. Large, widespread, and well established species, on the other hand, are not expected to change very much. We believe that the inertia of large populations explains the stasis of most fossil species over millions of years.
Told you.

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups.
Read that one over until you've absorbed it. He's talking to you there. He's definitely talking to you.

BTW, "generally" does not mean "perfectly." Many instances of species-level transtion are known.

Smooth Change in the Fossil Record.

That, in turn, comes from a discussion of what PE really is: Speciation by Punctuated Equilibrium.

For examples of transitions at many taxononmic levels (and a general refutation of creationist claims, see Taxonomy, Transitional Forms, and the Fossil Record. I like it because it talks about what evolution predicts/explains and pig-ignorantism creation/ID ignores: if you trace a modern form back through the fossil record it becomes more and more similar to "unrelated" (in modern times) forms until all differences disappear and the best you can find could be a generalized common ancestor of a lot of different modern forms. That is, you see a branching tree of divergence in reverse as you go back. Don't believe me? Read it for yourself.

... other darwinists who admit that they cannot disprove irreducible complexity or show a plausible explanation of the origin of a cell.

Perhaps you mean "Darwinists" like Behe himself, who purports to accept common descent but not particularly mutation and selection? Any biologist worth his salt is familiar with what is wrong with Behe's IC. Behe says there's no way an IC thing can evolve. Every real biologist has known better since 1939.

For one, Behe thought he had invented Irreducibly Complexity. On pages 203-204, he wonders if some unknown mechanism could generate I.C.-ness. He dismisses the possibility. On page 233 he compares his great discovery to those of Newton, Einstein, Pasteur and Darwin. He should instead have compared himself to Nobel Prize winner H. J. Muller [3], who invented irreducible complexity in 1939. Muller argued in some detail that evolution would routinely cause such systems. That conclusion is today a common wisdom of evolutionary biology. Behe didn't rebut Muller's argument because he didn't even know it existed. He says on page 187 that evolution always progresses by addition, but any evolutionist knows that it often happens by subtraction.
Note that the quoted text occurs in a subsection called "Ignorance of His Own Subject Area." It's a review of Behe's Darwin's Black Box. Don't forget to click the link to How Can Evolution Cause Irreducibly Complex Systems?

As for abiogenesis, "Darwinists" know that Darwin for one never even wrote about it. Evolution is about how the diversity of life we have now arose from some early and primitive universal common ancestor. The origin of that first thing is another problem for another theory. You don't "refute" a theory by lying about what it's even about.

How can you as a rational human (descended from an ape of course) believe all this conjecture is a fact and continue to disparage anyone who questions the darwin "science"; and make up stories to fool school children that you know are false.

How can you post one misstatement after another--AS YOU HAVE DONE IN YOUR POST--and expect to be taken seriously on a subject of which everything you have said is false?

223 posted on 09/16/2006 7:28:33 AM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: razzle
Let me put an end to "irreducible complexity" ~ Science News, August 26, 2006, Vol 170, page 133, "Lacy Molecular Order".

"

Lacy molecular order

Peter Weiss

This surprising honeycomb pattern emerged after an organic-chemical vapor settled onto a cold copper surface, which was then heated and cooled. On copper (black), each anthraquinone molecule appears in this scanning tunneling microscope image as a mound that's orange or yellow on top, green in the middle, and blue at the base.

 

a7624_1527.jpg


Bartels Research Group

 

Scientists had never seen spontaneous molecular patterns include voids that were so much bigger than the molecules themselves, says Ludwig Bartels of the University of California, Riverside. The pattern results from a balance of attractive and repulsive forces, his team proposes in the Aug. 18 Science. Typically, making such open patterns requires elaborately crafted templates. Bartels suggests that by merely tweaking properties of molecules or surfaces, researchers might generate various patterns and pore sizes. "

224 posted on 09/16/2006 7:33:04 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: VadeRetro
"punctuated equilibrium" - ha ha - the cracks in your religion are appearing.

Referring to the fossil record, Gould stated the "embarrassment of a record that seems to show so little of evolution directly" and also this "The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record persists...the evolutionary trees that adorn our textbooks (brainwashing our kids again) have data only at the tips" (and we haven't even gotten into lack of darwinism at the molecular level or the frauds of your embryology "evidence")

Gotta give you credit for trying to keep that faith alive.

(I didn't address this to coyote or the other darwinists, I know they will read this since you all page each other immediately when someone questions the faith)
225 posted on 09/16/2006 9:17:21 AM PDT by razzle (darwinism is in its death throes)
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To: razzle
Your actual quote (in context):

Darwin's argument still persists as the favored escape of most paleontologists from the embarrassment of a record that seems to show so little of evolution. In exposing its cultural and methodological roots, I wish in no way to impugn the potential validity of gradualism (for all general views have similar roots). I only wish to point out that it is never "seen" in the rocks.

Paleontologists have paid an exorbitant price for Darwin's argument. We fancy ourselves as the only true students of life's history, yet to preserve our favored account of evolution by natural selection we view our data as so bad that we never see the very process we profess to study.

For several years, Niles Eldredge of the American Museum of Natural History and I have been advocating a resolution to this uncomfortable paradox. We believe that Huxley was right in his warning [1]. The modern theory of evolution does not require gradual change. In fact, the operation of Darwinian processes should yield exactly what we see in the fossil record.

Not that you'll even read this, but the word "directly" only appears in the Panda's Thumb essay dealing with this quote [1].

Now, since this is the first time I've ever caught you taking a quote out of context to make it say something it does not say, I'll cut you some slack and say you were simply ignorant. There are those who post on these threads, though, that continue to do it after they've been caught -- those folks are basically liars.

Now, what does it say about a movement that has to lie to support its position? Doesn't that sound like what Democrats do on a regular basis?

226 posted on 09/16/2006 9:27:51 AM PDT by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: razzle
(I didn't address this to coyote or the other darwinists, I know they will read this since you all page each other immediately when someone questions the faith)

Found it on my own thank you.

But I see Junior has handled it nicely.

Here is some evidence for your consideration:



Fossil: KNM-WT 15000

Site: Nariokotome, West Turkana, Kenya (1)

Discovered By: K. Kimeu, 1984 (1)

Estimated Age of Fossil: 1.6 mya * determined by Stratigraphic, faunal & radiometric data (1, 4)

Species Name: Homo ergaster (1, 7, 8), Homo erectus (3, 4, 7, 10), Homo erectus ergaster (25)

Gender: Male (based on pelvis, browridge) (1, 8, 9)

Cranial Capacity: 880 (909 as adult) cc (1)

Information: Most complete early hominid skeleton (80 bones and skull) (1, 8)

Interpretation: Hairless and dark pigmented body (based on environment, limb proportions) (7, 8, 9). Juvenile (9-12 based on 2nd molar eruption and unfused growth plates) (1, 3, 4, 7, 8). Juvenile (8 years old based on recent studies on tooth development) (27). Incapable of speech (based on narrowing of spinal canal in thoracic region) (1)

Nickname: Turkana Boy (1), Nariokotome Boy

See original source for notes:
Source: http://www.mos.org/evolution/fossils/fossilview.php?fid=38

227 posted on 09/16/2006 9:59:43 AM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: kellynch

Don't you believe that only God could predict earthquakes in the world, which He does in the Bible, before there were scientists who sought out the answers on this? And how could God know this? Because he was the author of the earth and put the plates together.

To compare scientific discoveries by man to what God can and has done is just plain assinic. There is only one God who created this earth and everything in it. I believe in the God who can and does all things.


228 posted on 09/16/2006 10:20:57 AM PDT by taxesareforever (Never forget Matt Maupin)
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To: razzle

Crush any dissent?

No, to try and help you realize that science is science, not what you wish science would be.

As far as Gould etc, he was wrong, is wrong, and continues to be wrong.

Irreducible complexity has been disproven in so many ways, and so many times, that continued use of such nonsense just shows that ignoring the evidence is easier then dealing with it.

Dissent is fine, as long as it is scientific dissent, so far I have yet to see any.

I see religious dissent, which has nothing to do with science, or the scientific method.


229 posted on 09/16/2006 10:21:23 AM PDT by Jaguarbhzrd
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To: muawiyah
Anyone who doesn't think translation doesn't change the Scriptures hasn't done enough translating.

And anyone who believes that the Scriptures are translating is in danger of spending eternity in hell.

230 posted on 09/16/2006 10:22:32 AM PDT by taxesareforever (Never forget Matt Maupin)
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To: Jaguarbhzrd

Sorry, that should have been the Gould quotes are wrong, and continue to be wrong. That isn't actually what he meant, but creationists are infamous for taking quotes out of context to fit their needs.


231 posted on 09/16/2006 10:23:59 AM PDT by Jaguarbhzrd
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To: razzle

You are quotemining, and taking them out of context, again.

You need to stop this, it makes you look dishonest and desperate.

And evolution has been in in it's death knell since 1859, so I think that saying such a thing is wishful thinking, to say the least.

The evidence for evolution is overwhelming, so to continue to ignore that evidence, shows major desperation on the creationists part.


232 posted on 09/16/2006 10:27:54 AM PDT by Jaguarbhzrd
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To: ofwaihhbtn

bttt


233 posted on 09/16/2006 10:28:55 AM PDT by shield (A wise man's heart is at his RIGHT hand; but a fool's heart at his LEFT. Ecc 10:2)
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To: taxesareforever

So, could not God have created us through evolution?


234 posted on 09/16/2006 10:29:03 AM PDT by Jaguarbhzrd
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To: Jaguarbhzrd
Wasn't Gould's thesis that the "uniformitarian" and "gradualist" points of view were invalid when it came to "evolution"?

That, in fact, sometimes things happened too rapidly to produce good fosil records anyway.

No doubt all of his details in support of his general thesis have been supplanted by more advanced findings by now of course, but that general thesis would still be true.

235 posted on 09/16/2006 10:45:15 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

See post 231, I corrected myself.


236 posted on 09/16/2006 10:59:49 AM PDT by Jaguarbhzrd
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To: Jaguarbhzrd
Very good ~ missed that. Thought you were off your meds there a second.
237 posted on 09/16/2006 11:08:45 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: ofwaihhbtn
It was well-known that selective breeding can create variations within species. But the boundaries between species are distinct and firm--one species does not simply trail off into another by degrees.

This sociologist's screed his full of such delicious irony. For instance, as in the present example, although he's puffing himself up as a righteous denouncer of (supposed) narrowness, dogmatism and gratuitous fact mongering on the part of "Darwinists," he himself makes many bald assertions of simple (supposed) fact that are wildly wrong.

Yes, it's true that in many cases "the boundaries between species are distinct and firm," but it's just as true that in many other cases they are not.

If we take reproductive isolation to mark the species boundary, as is most commonly done, then there is almost every imaginable degree of such in nature, depending on which allied species we consider. There are some species which never hybridize with their closest living relatives; and among them some which physically cannot, but also some that could, but simply don't (e.g. because of behavioral barriers or because of geographic isolation). Then there are species which do hybridize, but again with every variation in degree of rarity. Some hybrids are relatively common, while others are extremely rare. Still others can only be produced under very unusual circumstance or with human intervention. Hybrids themselves show every degree of fertility; some completely infertile, and others whose fertility is merely reduced wrt to pure breds, again to a great variety of degrees.

And of course, even if admittedly few in number, there ARE cases, such as "ring species," where "one species ... simply trail[ing] off into another by degrees" is EXACTLY what we find in nature.

Now let's ignore the fact that such wide variation in the distinctness and firmness of species barriers is exactly what we should expect to find if evolution is true. Let's even ignore the fact that the author, while pretending to denounce dogmatism, is ludicrously full of his own. Let's just consider that the overwhelmingly prevalent pattern wrt to biological phenomena (again, even leaving evolution completely aside) is DIVERSITY and VARIATION. There is hardly a generalization that can be made in the field that does not have degrees, and most probably outright exceptions.

This is true of even the most basic generalizations. For example there is probably no more general principle in biology than the "cell theory," which claims that all living organisms are composed of cells. And yet there are at least partial exceptions even to this: e.g. organisms or tissues that don't have cell walls, so that multiple nucleases exist in the same field of cytoplasm.

So here we have an idiot who is not only ignorant of the fact that boundaries between species are NOT (in any remotely uniform sense) "distinct and firm". That's bad enough. We also have one who, in his ignorance, is also clueless enough about biology in general to even expect it to be true. And yet such a one feels free to pontificate knowingly on the largest problems in biology, and to globally correct it's leading lights. Amazing.

238 posted on 09/16/2006 11:09:52 AM PDT by Stultis
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To: razzle
Gotta give you credit for trying to keep that faith alive.

Gotta give you credit for a non-substantive, non-responsive, brazen repetition of utterly demolished points. Are you hoping no one will notice? What kind of idiot sucker are you trolling for here?

239 posted on 09/16/2006 11:13:03 AM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Stultis
So here we have an idiot who is not only ignorant of the fact that boundaries between species are NOT (in any remotely uniform sense) "distinct and firm". That's bad enough. We also have one who, in his ignorance, is also clueless enough about biology in general to even expect it to be true. And yet such a one feels free to pontificate knowingly on the largest problems in biology, and to globally correct it's leading lights. Amazing.

He's not doing science. He's doing apologetics. The author's approach falls within what has become the standard method for that field.

240 posted on 09/16/2006 11:42:32 AM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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