Posted on 09/01/2006 8:50:13 AM PDT by van_erwin
I'm a Buddhist.
"I'm a Buddhist."
Doesn't change anything. I'm not a Buddhist, but have studied and greatly respect Buddhism. Your statement made me remember a precept about lying I read once. I found it on the web:
Once upon a time there were two boys who wanted to go to the moon. They asked many people how to go to the moon, but no one knew the answer. One day, while the boys were playing a game inside their house, their mother, who was outside, discovered that the house was on fire. The fire surrounded the house, which prevented her from rescuing them. She shouted to her boys to get out, but the boys were playing the game wholeheartedly and did not pay attention to her. A monk ran to the house and shouted, "Boys, I will take you to moon, come out at once!" They ran out from house with minor injury and asked the monk when he would take them to moon.
As a monk, he vowed not tell a lie, but who could punish him for telling a lie to save the boys' lives. Shakyamuni admitted that we may have to break the precepts in a difficult circumstance like this, therefore, he taught his disciples to return the vow to Buddha first, then conduct the best way to solve the problem. Take responsibility for the conduct without giving any excuse. Finally, make a vow to follow the Buddhist teaching again. Shakyamuni strongly taught his disciples not to make the same mistakes over again.
from http://www.koyasan.org/nckoyasan/On_Buddhism.html
The kind of lying that both Buddha and Christ would abhor bears absolutely no relation to what happened to these journalists.
Besides, imagine the testimony of faith to bear witness to Christ in the face of death. That is what it means to trust God.
Easy to say from the comfort of my chair? Sure. I can only pray for the strength if I'm ever called to martyrdom.
"I think a Christian would have to do a lot of soul-searching after finding that his skin is more important than Christ."
I agree. And it's a horrible situation to be in. However, I believe in an all-knowing and merciful God who knows my heart. I don't know what I would do, either. I might be so f-ing angry at my captors that it might spur me to martyr myself. If not, I would repent and I know full well that God would understand and forgive.
1. You do not martyr yourself. That is a Muslim attitude. Our lives are demanded of us because of our faith in Christ. Mark 13:13.
2. A martyr isn't a martyr out of hatred for those who take his life. He offers his life for the sake of Christ Who may take this sacrifice and save his captors. There are many historical examples of conversion by witnessing the faith of martyrs.
Yeah, keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
I finally got to see the video. Their hearts are not into Islam. They did what they had to do to live. So would I. That's a very bizzare video. If anyone thinks they converted to Islam, well.. you need help.
Christ on a crutch, I know! I was being glib. My point is that it ain't "Off to Hell with ya" if you pretend to accept Islam, unless you fail to make penance afterwards. Christ's mercy is boundless for those who give Him their heart.
I get your point. And I think that what you wrote; "When the missiles are aimed at us, what's to stop the non-grounded from reciting the Shihada to "save us" from war? Apparently nothing" is exactly where we are headed.
No doubt, this will not sit well with some, but you are right.
I'm afraid you're correct, too. I do not think many Muslims accept the direction their faith is taking them, and there will be some kind of "Krystahlnacht" to cleanse those "unbelievers" someday. We are heading for a collision, and it is shocking to me when I find liberals who simply refuse to accept that--since they don't WANT it to be true, it isn't true for them. As I asked a gay "independent" the other day, "Why are you against Bush when if he lost this fight, you would be one of the first to lose his head?"
This isn't an excellent point, it's ludicrous! What God said is true. If Pharoah had given in, that is what would have occurred. The Israelites didn't skip out on Pharoah, they escaped cruel captivity. This challenge was issued to show the extent of the injustice to the Israelites that they couldn't even worship God as He commanded them.
I appreciate your agreement but my point is deeper than this. It isn't about saving your own skin and getting penance afterward (forgiveness vs permission?), it's about our Christian calling. In the New Testament, Christ calls us to be martyrs for the faith! We've gotten so comfortable that we have forgotten that the early Church was told they would suffer persecution and death for the sake of Jesus. It wasn't something to be avoided, it was something accepted as part of following Christ. Today we think we can duck out of persecution with a get out of hell card and get back to our Sunday socials... that isn't what we were called to be!
I could lie like the monk did if that cause served to bring about an effect that was beneficial to self or others. Renouncing my refuge in the three jewels to save my hide would not be beneficial to self or others nor would its effect be neutral. It would be extremely harmful to all concerned including the jihadis.
Shakyamuni Buddha never laid down edicts that would force anyone to make a choice between the Dharma and something else knowing that not everyone has the realization to fully understand the effect of their actions. To do so would be no different than the choice the Islamo-fascists offer. It would bring about a situation of confusion wherein someone would feel compelled to accept the Dharma which would not be Dharma. It would be a path away from true Dharma in spite of appearances and good intentions. (Style over substance.)
I do know what the effect would be so the decision for me is clear. Shakyamuni's compassion for those who are not clear about cause and effect doesn't change the nature of cause and effect. He was simply avoiding setting up a situation that would confuse someone into doing a greater harm to themselves than renouncing the Dharma under duress. Namely, clinging to the Dharma under duress. A self-imposed duress, I might add, through misunderstanding of the teachings.
Let me be absolutely clear here; I'm not saying that ignorance is the excuse. It has to do with the recognition that ignorance is the condition that a given person finds themselves in and the depth of that ignorance determines the conditions. Causes (actions) don't occur in a vacuum they play off of the conditions that exist at the time.
It's my choice and I know the effects. My current body is worth nothing next to my refuge vows. If you have made the assumption that I was criticizing or condemning Centanni's actions you have assumed incorrectly. I was merely pointing out the effect.
I would be the last one to argue that Christ's heart is not always open. But he himself said "I am in the Father and the Father is in me." If you remove Christ from your heart, even under duress, even for a moment, haven't you set up the conditions that make it harder to open your heart to let Christ back in? You see, it's not a matter of affecting Christ's openess to you that is changed. It is the effect of your actions on your own mind that removing him for temporary preservation of the body creates. You can start all over again (which is all that Buddha Shakyamuni was indicating you could do) but you'll be starting with a greater obstruction in your heart/mind than you had the first time you took refuge. The question is simply "is it worth it?" not "is it possible?" In order for me to say it's worth it I would have to see a greater benefit to someone. I don't. Start hacking! ; )
What's the difference? You'd do the same thing. He said a few words BIG FREAKING DEAL. Nobody should have to die at the hands of those madmen....GOD will understand.
Well, is he a Muslim, or isn't he?
A .358 Muslim.
How do you know Centanni is a practicing Christian?
I think if you call the 800 number on the back (800 KILL INFDLS) you can cancel before they charge your credit card.
But you have to send them your severed head.
I have a hard enough time sealing packages when I can see the tape gun. ;^P
Yes, but the point is that you shouldn't go into a situation like that thinking that at the first sign of difficulty, you can always "convert" to Islam and all will be well. That's presuming on God's mercy.
You have to think that you must and will resist. If human weakness overtakes you, well, then God will understand, I am sure. But you can't start out ready to give in to them, which it sounds as if you are.
One of the bad things about such an act, on a practical level, is that you weaken all the rest of us and you give the enemy enormous propaganda material. Suppose the Nazis had been capturing our guys and broadcasting on the radio their adherences to Hitler, complete with groveling renunciations of the US?
The fact that I have seen so many people here on FR cheerfully proclaiming that they would adhere to Islam at the mere threat of torture is very depressing. And these journalists weren't even tortured - they were mistreated and afraid, but nothing had really been done to them at that point.
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