Posted on 09/01/2006 8:50:13 AM PDT by van_erwin
The two Fox News staffers who were kidnapped in Gaza earlier this month were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint, according to news reports. Fox's Steve Centanni said on Wednesday that he didn't know if he was officially a Muslim—"I don't know enough about Islam to know if it was official, or recognized." Well, is he a Muslim, or isn't he?
(Excerpt) Read more at slate.com ...
If you say something to save your life you mean it.
I said "Think of making the video for the captors as acting, cuz that's what it really is. It's pretend."
You said: "That's an interesting reality you have there. If you pretend that the jihadis aren't really threatening to kill you then it isn't real?"
No, I'm not pretending the jihadists aren't real in this make-believe scenario. I'm saying that the *words* I'm forced to say can be spoken like an actor reads a script. Speaking them does not change who I am in any way. I can willingly (not under duress) read Hitler's "Mein Kampf" out loud and I know it's not really MY words or MY beliefs. Perhaps I need to read it for a history class, and read out a passage for a study group. Even WITHOUT the coercion, the mere words coming out of my mouth do not mean I have renounced anything. My mind is not so stupid and dull that it thinks I have become a Nazi.
Good!
But I have indeed seen people here say, oh, it doesn't matter what you say, go ahead and do it, everybody will realize it was under duress. By that rationale, every captured American should immediately have denounced the US, rather than simply reciting his name, rank and serial number.
"If you say something to save your life you mean it."
I see no evidence that this is true. What if you were forced, after torture and duress, by some crazy-ass broccoli farmers to state "I love broccoli and I hate meat. Everyone should only ever eat broccoli. Meat eaters will go to hell."
Well I, for one, would gladly make this little statement for the veggofascists, if I knew they'd let me go afterwards (especially since my survival would aid the authorities in arresting the mofos.) I said it and it saved my life. I certainly didn't mean it.
You forget "I shall harden his heart, and he will not let the people go." Pharaoh's initial refusal was not his own fault. It was part of God's plan to show off his power.
The Israelites didn't skip out on Pharoah, they escaped cruel captivity.
They definitely escaped cruel captivity, but Moses didn't ask Pharaoh to set his people free.
The reality of being taken hostage by psychotic murderers is ... you're the hostage of psychotic murderers.
If you think you're doing something other than what you're doing ... you're fantasizing.
The point I have made is not that saying "I love Allah" means you love Allah. The point is you make a conscious decision to place the value of your biological survival above the truth of mind. You have choose to value body more than mind. That attachment exists in mind. The body eventually ceases to exist and the mind continues on with a deeply imbedded attachment that can't be gratified. Confusion ensues in spite of any caveats or clauses you promised yourself. Those will be forgotten but the attachment to body will still arise and arise more strongly because of that choice. The suffering will be far more intense than if you had just let the jihadis shoot you.
I don't know, did you suddenly become an a$$hole?
I think we need to force the Gitmo prisoners to watch Dr. Gene Scott 24/7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6Fqms_Iw8M
I see no evidence that this is true.
How about this? Steve Centanni is in doubt as to whether he is a Muslim or not. He is already experiencing suffering for the choice he made.
You don't have to be on a movie set to act. People act all the time in many aspects of their lives. I'm not saying this is necessarily a good thing. Rather, I'm saying I disagree that uttering the crap the jihadists want you to say changes the "truth" in your "mind."
The part I agree with you about is that attachment to body is a bad thing. However, I diagree that uttering the words places body above mind because the words need not affect the mind on a serious level (acting). Attachment to impermanent things is always harmful, but it is wrong to be attached to non-attachment as well. I feel that's where you're going. For example, you wouldn't stop eating and just die in order to show you're not attached to life--to your body, would you?
If I 'give up the ghost' so easily by not uttering some crap on a page, knowing the whole world will know it is crap, then I have shite upon my body. It's not overattachment to save one's life by such simple meaningless means. Again, I think it's a sign of attachment to nonattachment.
Centanni is not experiencing suffering because he is in doubt about whether he is a Muslim. The Slate article, and the Fox article it links to, simply ponder whether he is technically considered a convert under muslim law. There is absolutely nothing in the articles that indicates Centanni has any problems about his identity due to being forced to read crap on video. Now, I'm sure the whole kidnapping ordeal has caused suffering that continues in his mind, but he cut the kidnapping short by 'acting' and saying the crap they wanted him to say. So he has actually lessened his suffering.
bttt!
That is a good question?
How does it weight-in in the eyes of the Lord?
Looks to me like he's a little concerned. I read someplace that it was his younger friend, Wiig, who encouraged him to do this. Wiig obviously had no problem with it, but it looks to me as if Centanni might.
Somebody on another thread described this as mental rape, and I think that's how Centanni is feeling right now.
That's good. At least you're clear on that.
However, I diagree that uttering the words places body above mind because the words need not affect the mind on a serious level (acting).
Everything the mind does it does on its own level ... mind.
If you really want to save your life and you really do say what you're told to say to save it how is that acting? What part of "really" isn't real there? It's not the meaning of the words you say that's important it's the reason you say them. Intent. You are really willing to do what someone else tells you to do to save your skin. You abdicate control of your mind to someone else. That is the reality. That has an effect on mind. Saying it doesn't doesn't change it.
As long as you don't see cause and effect as real we will continue to go in circles with each other. I can't make you think it's real. Belief in karma doesn't work. You have to know it exists in order to work with it.
Which begs the question; what is it (with all due respect) that you respect about Buddhism? It means nothing to me that you do or don't but without knowing that cause and effect are real Buddhism is meaningless. Just a bunch of flowery words that sound good. Maybe it's just me but if I hadn't seen the truth of cause and effect first I wouldn't have given two cents for the Dharma. With a firm view of karma the Dharma can become an indispensible treasure but without it there's nothing to build on at all. It's just a pretty facade for New Agers to adorn their emotions with.
Just like real estate agents and used car salesmen. :)
Those are his words not the Slate authors. He is expressing doubt and confusion about the results of his actions. That is a fundamental manifestation of mental suffering in my book.
That's a good analogy and I bet he does feel that way.
Thought the new convert would be allowed to ask...he is no longer an infidel and should expect the truth from a fellow Muslim.
It didn't bother the 9/11 hijackers to drink alcohol and look at porn. They still crashed the planes with full confidence in "Allah."
As someone further up this thread noted by the letter of Islamic law only Jews and Christians can convert to Islam. It didn't stop them from accepting untold thousands of Hindus' conversions when they invaded India. And undoubtedly uncounted masses of other non-Jew and non-Christian masses they conquered over the centuries.
The bottom line is that they are a fanatic cult that seeks power above and beyond any doctrinal bilge they hold up as holy. They don't actually adhere to any moral or ethical bounds as proved out time and again. They treat each other as badly as they do anyone else.
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