Posted on 06/24/2006 1:46:24 PM PDT by BenLurkin
I can assure you, the very same people starting soccer riots in Germany are probably also bashing foreigners and torching immigrant homes when there's no soccer on. They probably didn't demonstrate against the WTO, the War or for a better, hippyesque world. But they are also German, that's true, so it's totally reasonable that you try to link WTO demos and soccer riots.
Don't mention the score! D:
And don't you dare dropping out before the finals :D
I don’t consider myself an expert in legal affaires. That’s not an area I feel exceptionally strong in. Nonetheless, I have made numerous personal observations and know for a fact that the Germans as a whole are a bit more “soft” on crime and many things punishable in the US are not even a crime in Germany. You don’t need to be a lawyer to know that Cannabis, prostitution, drinking ages, sale of pornography, DUI/DWI’s, indecent exposure, are issues that are not prosecuted at all or to the extent as in the US. While I am no lawyer, I do know a bit about statistics, and I also understand how definitions affect the outcome often since apples are compared to bananas in these comparisons.
Example: Germans often take the SAT or ACT exams and go to US colleges and universities. There are “studies” that show US students as being behind and scoring lower. Is this really the case? No, not at all. Near all German kids who take the SAT or ACT are abiturienten and are basically the upper ¼ -1/3 of the academic community, while in the US near all high school students at some point take this exam. You’re statistic is excluding those who stopped their education with a Haubt or Realschulabschluss which comprises the “bulk” of German kids. One does not need to think about this matter long to see the BS in the comparisons.
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Let me give you another “real world” example that is on topic with crime comparisons.
If you rob a convince store in Florida, and you tell the person behind the counter to go anywhere in the store, (in other words you order them to move) they will now also prosecute you for kidnapping.
It’s largely a matter of definitions: http://www.pdsdc.org/CriminalLawDatabase/cldChargeDef.asp?DivID=cjdDeten
In the US people do every year get “arrested” for indecent exposure. People are tried, fined and go to jail for exposing themselves. http://www.pdsdc.org/CriminalLawDatabase/cldChargeDef.asp?DivID=cjdDeten
The elements of this offense are:
1. The defendant made any obscene or indecent exposure of his or her person, or made any lewd, obscene, or indecent sexual proposal, or committed any other lewd, obscene, or indecent act; (Penalty: up to $300 fine, 90 days, or both) OR
2. The defendant committed the above offense; AND
3. The defendant was in the presence of a child under the age of 16 years;
4. The defendant knew he or she was in the presence of a child under the age of 16 years (Penalty: up to $1,000 fine, 1 year, or both).
In Frankfurt you have a guy that runs around naked in Saxenhausen and people laugh at him, in the US they would arrest him! Do you understand the difference? He is a legend in Saxenhausen at least in the late 90s when he was still around. I’m not saying that in the US we always make sense. Arresting German tourists in Florida because they had to urinate and did so behind some bushes for indecent exposure does not make sense to me either. But the point is simply that these comparisons in crime statistics are invalid before they are even computed. The definitions of these laws, enforcement of them, etc is different.
The definition of assault in the District of Columbia: http://www.pdsdc.org/CriminalLawDatabase/cldChargeDef.asp?DivID=cjdDeten
The elements of this offense are:
A. Attempted-Battery Assault:
1. The defendant made an attempt or effort, with force or violence, to injure another person;
2. The time the defendant made that attempt of effort, he or she had the apparent present ability to injure that person;
3. The defendant made the attempt or effort voluntarily and on purpose, not by mistake or accident;
4. The defendant’s conduct was not justified by the use of reasonable parental discipline.
B. Intent-to-Frighten Assault:
1. The defendant committed a threatening act that reasonably would create in another person a fear of immediate injury;
2. The time the defendant made that attempt of effort, he or she had the apparent present ability to injure that person;
3. The defendant made the attempt or effort voluntarily and on purpose, not by mistake or accident;
4. The defendant’s conduct was not justified by the use of reasonable parental discipline.
C. Non-Violent Sexual Touching Assault:
1. The defendant committed a sexual touching on another person;
2. When the defendant committed the touching, he or she acted voluntarily and on purpose, and not by mistake or accident;
3. The other person did not consent to being touched by the defendant in that manner.
Like Florida that often throws kidnapping on top of the list of other charges for anyone robbing a store, if you commit indecent exposure, there is a high likelihood that you will also be charged with assault on top of that! Assault is a near catch all in the US. Cases of child abuse are often issues that end up with assault charges.
In sue happy America; MOST cases of assault do not include what is called battery. They are simple assault cases.
If you threaten me, even if you never touch me, I can "sue you" for assault just on the basis of you “scaring me”. The mere act of a threat is already something that constitutes assault and where money can be made, lawyers are present, offering their services.
Another example: If you have Grüneburgpark in Frankfurt and the Polizei just walk by knowing the “fixer” hangs out in there but they do absolutely nothing, you might not have the drug arrest statistic that a city like Dallas Texas has which would bust them. Enforcement of laws, creates statistics. Number of people prosecuted in Germany for Sodomy? http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/26/scotus.sodomy Dies wurde als Verfassungs wiedrig eingestuft, jedoch sassen Leute im Gefaehgniss weil sie anal oder oralverkehr hatten. Und schau her, fasst alle die vor Gericht landen wegen Sodomy wurden zusaetzlich mit “assault” verklagt.
http://www.lambdalegal.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/fact.html?record=1231 I find Homo’s disgusting and frankly I do believe they will all end in hell. Nonetheless, one of their advocate sites clearly depicts the difference between the US and Germany. Most Sodomy laws have been struck down, but in Texas even in 2003 they basically had laws on the book that made being a homosexual or lesbian basically a crime. In fact, engaging in oral or anal sex in your own home could be prosecuted if for example your wife was upset and ran to the Police and accused you of having sodomized her (Happened for real). The husband went to jail despite the act having been “consensual” at the time and the wife regretting and wanting to drop the charges did not stop the events which led to a husband being incarcerated several years ago on sodomy charges.
I’m not stating that the German justice system will not prosecute those at the soccer game. What I’m stating is that the statistical comparisons are largely bullshit. The laws are different, the entire legal system is different (except Louisiana), the enforcement of the laws is different, and the definitions of what these things mean is in many instances not even the same. But that’s just my opionion.
You missed this thread.
Didn't miss it...decided to bypass it, because I know SoccerFan won't like my comment. FReepmail me for it.
Not going to fall for that one again. ;o)
LOL...this one is tame...just that I don't want to have CapriSun thrown at me!
This is true and we are not speaking about the legal system alone. Values are completely different. Therefore: Statistics can not be compared. Nevertheless it is my personal observation that the US have areas where the crime rate is much more dense in comparison to Germany due to the wider social gap in the society. I lived as a student for some time in Hamburg/St.Georg which is for sure one of the most criminal areas (drugs/prostitution/anarchy) in Europe and found it much less dangerous than some areas in New York or LA. Of course those both towns do not represent the rest of the US, but they are a fundamental impression for most Europeans concerning this issue.
Anyway our different viewpoints hve sometimes a really funny outcome:
I remember the story of a young girl going in the US into a (woman's! - Buhuhaha!) sauna. She was arrested because she was walking naked into the sauna since some of your compatriots think that it is nessecary to wear clothes in a sauna (personally I think that - if we speak about men - the private parts of Amerian sauna visitors must be well done and not usable for their god-given designation anymore). This is something unthinkable in the old continent and the girl was not informed about this (to us strange) behaviour. Well I do not know if it is true but or just one of the lies of our press, but it would fit perfectly into the image. Although most saunas in Germany offer a "women's-day" or a "men's-day" they are usually used by a stark naked, mixed public of both sexes. Guess what? We have no problem with it. I used to go from being 16 into saunas (with my girl-friends back then) and I still do today with my wife and my sons although we have a own sauna in one of our houses. BTW - this experience did not made a notorious pervert of me...
Of course the girl acted wrong (even if she did not knew in advance) since she did something that is strictly forbidden in the host country and I do not want to proselytize Americans to nudity, since you guys and girls have to find out by yourselves what is fun or not.
Anyway it is a good example for trans-atlantic misunderstandig. Personally I think that the US have a scary rate of people being jailed (although as already said - statistics can not be compared):
France 100.000 inhabitants => 90 persons jailed
USA 100.000 inhabitants => 672 persons jailed
Source= (Justice Policy Institute, JPI) I just have it as a print. Sorry.
All in all there are more than 2 million people jailed in the US. Only Russia breaks this record. The Chinese shoot their prisoners, so they do not have crowded dungeons (sarcasm). Compared with the 80ties it is a increase of 61%. I do not know if it is a outcome of better police work or changed social circumstances and I do not know if the JPI is trustworthy. Anyway it is obvious that the US have a much bigger number of people in jails like we Europeans and their security situation is for sure not better.
Maybe you remember Helmut Kohl's famous words: "Es kommt darauf an, was hinten herauskommt."
What is much more important to me: I would never ever accept any laws that are telling me the way I have to copulate with my wife as long as our copulation is consensual. Since there is no real justification (some "christian Taliban" may find a verse from the Bible that fits into their wishes - but the US are hopefully not Iran) for such a prohibition you obviously have to deal with a severe lack of freedom.
If you want to apply for asylum in Germany just ask - we will help you for sure!
:-)))
France 100.000 inhabitants => 90 persons jailed
USA 100.000 inhabitants => 672 persons jailed
The number of people in prison is in part a reflection of a justice system that is draconian compared to most of Europe. The US not only practices the death penalty in several states, but is simply much harsher when it comes to sentencing for MANY crimes.
Example: Rape, child molestation, murder, drug offenses, DUI/DWI.
http://www.jessicaslaw2006.com States that have Jessica's law in place (And many do) will automatically slap a MINIMUM 15 year (JAHRE!) to 25 years on a child molester (Freiheitsstraffe nicht Bewaegrung). You will not see this sort of sentencing in Germany for this type of crime.
http://www.lawinfo.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/Client.lawarea/categoryid/139 Three strike rules impose an automatic 25 years sentence for an offender who commits a third crime.
This type of sentencing gives you large prison populations.
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As to your examples- Let me throw out mine. Month 4 in Germany my wife car had its rims stolen. My father is in the State Department and works in Frankfurt today. His house has been broken into TWICE. I today live in a Plano Texas, before that in Germany, Georgia, Alaska, Korea...... Never was I burglarized. In Alaska I never locked my car, my house or anything else. In fact, to keep my car warm and prevent engine damage in extreme temperatures I would often let my car run when in the store for an extended period if plug-in were not available. My fear of someone stealing my car was just about zero.
No way in hell is Frankfurt safer than most US cities. http://www.hr-online.de/website/rubriken/nachrichten/index.jsp?rubrik=14584&key=standard_document_5668166 Frankfurt in all reality has with 9 murders per 100,000 inhabitants the same rate as Los Angeles.
Another major issue is that the Germans are very reserved and "downplay" their freaks or issues while in the US everything is sensationalized and played up.
Shortly after Columbine you have a movie called “Bowling for Columbine”. The minor fact that in Germany you had TWO such instances and one with MORE dead than at Columbine is over looked by the German self proclaimed intellectual who tries to draw a connection between private gun ownership and violet crime. In Germany you have Homosexual S&M cannibals living in Rothenburg who flick off the judge during sentencing! You have a necrophilia murderer couple that first kills Oma and then has sex with her. Finally before leaving the apartment they poop all over in it in some ritual. At the Frankfurt train station there was a guy years ago who was selling AK47’s and taking orders for RPG’s in broad daylight! Even if you try to find something on it you can hardly do so. It’s no cover up, it’s just that the Germans don’t make a lot of fanfare about these events. This hardly made the news in the US. There is no TV drama that was immediately made that tells this story. Try finding a story about a guy in Frankfurt sniping people from the roof top in the downtown shopping area. It happened; did they make a movie about it?
A major aspect in this discussion is “perception”. Tell a German you live in Chicago and have a discussion on crime and you will guaranteed hear the mention of Al Capone.
I have a typo in this post. I'll fix it later.
I see your point, and the US officers surely are more willing to use their handcuffs than their colleagues in Germany, but assault is assault - be it in Germany or in the US (btw, we have a common Penal Code for entire Germany). The statistics cannot be that wrong, there is a tendency that there´s more violence against people, more crime against life and the physical integrity in America than say, in Europe. One can blame it on the ghettos, or a greater difference between rich and poor but it is true. Sure, what you say about the educational system is true, the comparisons are questionable, but we were talking about the riots here. When a man is beaten up in Stuttgart, the police reports it in their crime statistics, same in the US. And in these cases there´s "zero tolerance" from the policemen - in both countries. So we can compare battery, murder and these kinds of criminal behaviour. Just wanted to note that.
Have you followed the world cup a bit?
I am no lawyer, so I do not feel completely comfortable in this subject matter. However, unless proven otherwise I will stick to my argument that the definitions and enforcement of laws in Germany is largely different than in the US.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mord The Germans see “Mord” and define it differently than in the US. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder
In the US, premeditation is not a prerequisite to meet the legal requirement to be tried for murder.
Example (From http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=case&court=us&vol=481&page=137 ):
“Even someone who did not kill, attempt to kill or intend to kill can be executed if it is shown that he was a "major participant" in the murder and showed "extreme indifference to human life." For example, three brothers who broke their father out of prison and went on a crime spree killed a family traveling along a highway. They did so by flagging down their car under the pretense of being distressed motorists, then leading them out into the desert and shooting them execution-style. The father was the one who actually pulled the trigger, but the brothers were present at the killings and could have stopped them. A statewide police manhunt ensured; the father and brothers parted ways, and the father and one of the brothers died of exposure in the desert. The two remaining brothers were later apprehended, and the Supreme Court ultimately ruled that imposing the death penalty on them did not violate the Constitution.”
In Germany would they get tried for “Mord”? No. But in the US they did get tried for “murder”. The legal criteria and definitions are different.
Mord in Germany: In Germany the term Mord (murder) is officially used for the premeditated killing of another person.
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The problem with statistics on the Web:
http://www.angelfire.com/rnb/y/homicide.htm
This site throws around a lot of statistics. I’m sure other people quote them too! Unfortunately I can find some website that will claim all Germans wear lederhosen and do the Schuplatler all day while yodeling, or that they are all NAZI’s or whatever else you want to prove.
That site is nothing but a bunch of numbers that in reality mean nothing.
Going out to find proof of a specific predetermined answer and only searching for those shreds of data, leaving out contradicting information, presenting them as factual but the sources are at times dubious, dated, without a control group, lacking unified or common definitions on what things mean, presented out of context…… That sort of information is just trash. It’s worthless garbage.
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Not really. I watch little TV to begin with, and sports I watch practically never. I would watch a game in real life, since then the whole atmosphere, people, sounds etc is an experience worth witnessing.
As a first party involved guy who really enjoys the show over here in germany I can only say this was to be expected and it's the dark side of that sport.
This is europe, too. It's certainly not the way we want to be noticed around the world but then again it isn't.
But given the size of the event and the outcome of that particular Incident I cannot see anything but a outstanding performance of security and organisation.
This event is taken up more positive and by more people around the globe and especially over here in germany then any sports event ever. It's a hughe success. Even the folks whos teams where send home up to now still dream of that party.
And this is because it's one of the safest and best organized mega events ever so far. The hooligans that predicted to 'storm' that event have lost.
So today we can say that no hooligan or grumpy fart without an idea of soccer (a species close to extinction) can take that away from us soccer supporters.
Worst thing that might happen is that Argentinia wins the next game.
You can go to jail in florida if you get cought steeling a mars bar for the third time.
Is there a better way to teach real crime to youngsters ?
A society without or with to less sanctions against missbehaviour doesn't work. But there's obviously more to crime prevention then just putting 16 year old chocolate thiefs into jail with the homicide convicted and drug addicts. (Jesus even my cat would be in jail there)
I don't know an area in germany where you expose yourself to the risk of beeing shot. I have lived in a multicultural and multi ethnical area during my student times. They broke into my car twice - but neither me nor my girl have been threatened or attacked.
Today i live in a more 'quiet' area as for the fact that there's a soccer stadium a block away. So I wouldn't leave my car open over night as they do in Sweden or Norway - but you certainly do that in the US as an example in 8 mile Detroit or downtown LA.
I cannot fathom a higher risk of getting shot in the western world then in the US.
Still like it - but not for the legal system or the crime stats.
or the wounded german soldiers of todays IED attacks in Kabul ...
That's the english hools - rude I tell ya.
In Germany, you only get chained to the heating in the police station naked overnight. Still, I think it made me learn my lesson :(
I agree with you on the statistics matter though. And I have to say, even if I don't agree all the time, most of the posts I read from you stand out with an interesting and thought-out viewpoint. If I was a homosexual and bored with corrupting the immature minds and molesting the nubile bodies of teenagers, I would probably be trying to hit on you.
The German Polizei is very professional. That's beside the point. The issue is that the meanings of terms are different. The enforcement of certain laws varies (Even from state to state within the US). The severity of punishment is not the same. The laws themselves and even the justice systems are different. The interpretation of what data means is debatable. Often the statistics themselves are flawed………….
Often the statistics are outdated, or don't take population size into account. Many of these “studies” are flawed from the get go - population size of sample is inadequate, questions asked lead those being sampled, control group flaws, no random sampling etc. make the whole outcome flawed.
Let me give you an example: In Texas you have the highest ratio of persons incarcerated. Near .8% (793 out of 100,000) of the population is in prison. Does more people in jail equate to more crime? No, it does not. It equates to more people committing crimes going to jail. But some will use the high incarceration rate as an argument to demonstrate higher crime. You can “interpret” what the data means various ways. The liberal American will say that Texas is too tough on crime. The German will use the statistic to state that there is more crime, and the Texan will state that they simply deal with crime.
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