I don’t consider myself an expert in legal affaires. That’s not an area I feel exceptionally strong in. Nonetheless, I have made numerous personal observations and know for a fact that the Germans as a whole are a bit more “soft” on crime and many things punishable in the US are not even a crime in Germany. You don’t need to be a lawyer to know that Cannabis, prostitution, drinking ages, sale of pornography, DUI/DWI’s, indecent exposure, are issues that are not prosecuted at all or to the extent as in the US. While I am no lawyer, I do know a bit about statistics, and I also understand how definitions affect the outcome often since apples are compared to bananas in these comparisons.
Example: Germans often take the SAT or ACT exams and go to US colleges and universities. There are “studies” that show US students as being behind and scoring lower. Is this really the case? No, not at all. Near all German kids who take the SAT or ACT are abiturienten and are basically the upper ¼ -1/3 of the academic community, while in the US near all high school students at some point take this exam. You’re statistic is excluding those who stopped their education with a Haubt or Realschulabschluss which comprises the “bulk” of German kids. One does not need to think about this matter long to see the BS in the comparisons.
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Let me give you another “real world” example that is on topic with crime comparisons.
If you rob a convince store in Florida, and you tell the person behind the counter to go anywhere in the store, (in other words you order them to move) they will now also prosecute you for kidnapping.
It’s largely a matter of definitions: http://www.pdsdc.org/CriminalLawDatabase/cldChargeDef.asp?DivID=cjdDeten
In the US people do every year get “arrested” for indecent exposure. People are tried, fined and go to jail for exposing themselves. http://www.pdsdc.org/CriminalLawDatabase/cldChargeDef.asp?DivID=cjdDeten
The elements of this offense are:
1. The defendant made any obscene or indecent exposure of his or her person, or made any lewd, obscene, or indecent sexual proposal, or committed any other lewd, obscene, or indecent act; (Penalty: up to $300 fine, 90 days, or both) OR
2. The defendant committed the above offense; AND
3. The defendant was in the presence of a child under the age of 16 years;
4. The defendant knew he or she was in the presence of a child under the age of 16 years (Penalty: up to $1,000 fine, 1 year, or both).
In Frankfurt you have a guy that runs around naked in Saxenhausen and people laugh at him, in the US they would arrest him! Do you understand the difference? He is a legend in Saxenhausen at least in the late 90s when he was still around. I’m not saying that in the US we always make sense. Arresting German tourists in Florida because they had to urinate and did so behind some bushes for indecent exposure does not make sense to me either. But the point is simply that these comparisons in crime statistics are invalid before they are even computed. The definitions of these laws, enforcement of them, etc is different.
The definition of assault in the District of Columbia: http://www.pdsdc.org/CriminalLawDatabase/cldChargeDef.asp?DivID=cjdDeten
The elements of this offense are:
A. Attempted-Battery Assault:
1. The defendant made an attempt or effort, with force or violence, to injure another person;
2. The time the defendant made that attempt of effort, he or she had the apparent present ability to injure that person;
3. The defendant made the attempt or effort voluntarily and on purpose, not by mistake or accident;
4. The defendant’s conduct was not justified by the use of reasonable parental discipline.
B. Intent-to-Frighten Assault:
1. The defendant committed a threatening act that reasonably would create in another person a fear of immediate injury;
2. The time the defendant made that attempt of effort, he or she had the apparent present ability to injure that person;
3. The defendant made the attempt or effort voluntarily and on purpose, not by mistake or accident;
4. The defendant’s conduct was not justified by the use of reasonable parental discipline.
C. Non-Violent Sexual Touching Assault:
1. The defendant committed a sexual touching on another person;
2. When the defendant committed the touching, he or she acted voluntarily and on purpose, and not by mistake or accident;
3. The other person did not consent to being touched by the defendant in that manner.
Like Florida that often throws kidnapping on top of the list of other charges for anyone robbing a store, if you commit indecent exposure, there is a high likelihood that you will also be charged with assault on top of that! Assault is a near catch all in the US. Cases of child abuse are often issues that end up with assault charges.
In sue happy America; MOST cases of assault do not include what is called battery. They are simple assault cases.
If you threaten me, even if you never touch me, I can "sue you" for assault just on the basis of you “scaring me”. The mere act of a threat is already something that constitutes assault and where money can be made, lawyers are present, offering their services.
Another example: If you have Grüneburgpark in Frankfurt and the Polizei just walk by knowing the “fixer” hangs out in there but they do absolutely nothing, you might not have the drug arrest statistic that a city like Dallas Texas has which would bust them. Enforcement of laws, creates statistics. Number of people prosecuted in Germany for Sodomy? http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/26/scotus.sodomy Dies wurde als Verfassungs wiedrig eingestuft, jedoch sassen Leute im Gefaehgniss weil sie anal oder oralverkehr hatten. Und schau her, fasst alle die vor Gericht landen wegen Sodomy wurden zusaetzlich mit “assault” verklagt.
http://www.lambdalegal.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news/fact.html?record=1231 I find Homo’s disgusting and frankly I do believe they will all end in hell. Nonetheless, one of their advocate sites clearly depicts the difference between the US and Germany. Most Sodomy laws have been struck down, but in Texas even in 2003 they basically had laws on the book that made being a homosexual or lesbian basically a crime. In fact, engaging in oral or anal sex in your own home could be prosecuted if for example your wife was upset and ran to the Police and accused you of having sodomized her (Happened for real). The husband went to jail despite the act having been “consensual” at the time and the wife regretting and wanting to drop the charges did not stop the events which led to a husband being incarcerated several years ago on sodomy charges.
I’m not stating that the German justice system will not prosecute those at the soccer game. What I’m stating is that the statistical comparisons are largely bullshit. The laws are different, the entire legal system is different (except Louisiana), the enforcement of the laws is different, and the definitions of what these things mean is in many instances not even the same. But that’s just my opionion.
This is true and we are not speaking about the legal system alone. Values are completely different. Therefore: Statistics can not be compared. Nevertheless it is my personal observation that the US have areas where the crime rate is much more dense in comparison to Germany due to the wider social gap in the society. I lived as a student for some time in Hamburg/St.Georg which is for sure one of the most criminal areas (drugs/prostitution/anarchy) in Europe and found it much less dangerous than some areas in New York or LA. Of course those both towns do not represent the rest of the US, but they are a fundamental impression for most Europeans concerning this issue.
Anyway our different viewpoints hve sometimes a really funny outcome:
I remember the story of a young girl going in the US into a (woman's! - Buhuhaha!) sauna. She was arrested because she was walking naked into the sauna since some of your compatriots think that it is nessecary to wear clothes in a sauna (personally I think that - if we speak about men - the private parts of Amerian sauna visitors must be well done and not usable for their god-given designation anymore). This is something unthinkable in the old continent and the girl was not informed about this (to us strange) behaviour. Well I do not know if it is true but or just one of the lies of our press, but it would fit perfectly into the image. Although most saunas in Germany offer a "women's-day" or a "men's-day" they are usually used by a stark naked, mixed public of both sexes. Guess what? We have no problem with it. I used to go from being 16 into saunas (with my girl-friends back then) and I still do today with my wife and my sons although we have a own sauna in one of our houses. BTW - this experience did not made a notorious pervert of me...
Of course the girl acted wrong (even if she did not knew in advance) since she did something that is strictly forbidden in the host country and I do not want to proselytize Americans to nudity, since you guys and girls have to find out by yourselves what is fun or not.
Anyway it is a good example for trans-atlantic misunderstandig. Personally I think that the US have a scary rate of people being jailed (although as already said - statistics can not be compared):
France 100.000 inhabitants => 90 persons jailed
USA 100.000 inhabitants => 672 persons jailed
Source= (Justice Policy Institute, JPI) I just have it as a print. Sorry.
All in all there are more than 2 million people jailed in the US. Only Russia breaks this record. The Chinese shoot their prisoners, so they do not have crowded dungeons (sarcasm). Compared with the 80ties it is a increase of 61%. I do not know if it is a outcome of better police work or changed social circumstances and I do not know if the JPI is trustworthy. Anyway it is obvious that the US have a much bigger number of people in jails like we Europeans and their security situation is for sure not better.
Maybe you remember Helmut Kohl's famous words: "Es kommt darauf an, was hinten herauskommt."
What is much more important to me: I would never ever accept any laws that are telling me the way I have to copulate with my wife as long as our copulation is consensual. Since there is no real justification (some "christian Taliban" may find a verse from the Bible that fits into their wishes - but the US are hopefully not Iran) for such a prohibition you obviously have to deal with a severe lack of freedom.
If you want to apply for asylum in Germany just ask - we will help you for sure!
:-)))
I see your point, and the US officers surely are more willing to use their handcuffs than their colleagues in Germany, but assault is assault - be it in Germany or in the US (btw, we have a common Penal Code for entire Germany). The statistics cannot be that wrong, there is a tendency that there´s more violence against people, more crime against life and the physical integrity in America than say, in Europe. One can blame it on the ghettos, or a greater difference between rich and poor but it is true. Sure, what you say about the educational system is true, the comparisons are questionable, but we were talking about the riots here. When a man is beaten up in Stuttgart, the police reports it in their crime statistics, same in the US. And in these cases there´s "zero tolerance" from the policemen - in both countries. So we can compare battery, murder and these kinds of criminal behaviour. Just wanted to note that.
Have you followed the world cup a bit?
In Germany, you only get chained to the heating in the police station naked overnight. Still, I think it made me learn my lesson :(
I agree with you on the statistics matter though. And I have to say, even if I don't agree all the time, most of the posts I read from you stand out with an interesting and thought-out viewpoint. If I was a homosexual and bored with corrupting the immature minds and molesting the nubile bodies of teenagers, I would probably be trying to hit on you.