Posted on 06/13/2006 11:33:21 PM PDT by Lurker
Federal air marshals say their guns are loaded with bullets capable of running through more than one person, metal doors and thick glass -- too much firepower for an airplane.
"Not only is the person getting shot in danger, but everyone on the plane is because of the distance it travels," said one air marshal who testified in a recently completed House Judiciary Committee investigation of policies marshals deemed dangerous.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...
I am shocked that the author actually bothered to talk to someone who knows what he's talking about ie; Mr. Ayoob.
L
Are they trying to penetrate body armor? Not much chance of the average person getting on the flight wearing body armor, imo.
Heck the last time I flew, I barely had time to re-lace my boots..
Here is something I KNEW was true but never expected anyone to put into print: cockpit doors have been hardened with steel, but the walls on either side of the door have not. The dumbass Congress and TSA demonstrate once again that they care little about actual results. It's all about putting up a front.
Not that there will ever be another 9/11. Passengers won't get fooled again.
I think having body armor in your carry on bags on on your person would be a tip off that you're up to no good.
.357 SIG, like the .40 S&W, is a round that was created to be a compromise between the .45 ACP and the 9mm Parabellum.
The problem is, like all such prior attempts, it's kind of pointless, because either a 9mm will do a particular job just fine, or you *need* a .45.
The Glaser slug was carried briefly IIRC. It's a very non-penetrative round. That's why is was eventually rejected. It doesn't penetrate enough to be reliably lethal believe it or not. It's one of those bullets that sounds great on paper but doesn't really perform all that well in the real world.
Heavy clothing often cause the round to break up before it penetrates into the body. When it does penetrate the target, it often breaks up to early to do incapacitating damage. I've seen ER X rays which showed them breaking up and not penetrating more than a couple of inches; not nearly deeply enough to reliably incapacitate a human being.
There was talk of using the 'sintered metal' rounds but apparently nothing ever came of that either.
From what I understand the .357 Sig is basically a .45 ACP case narrowed at the neck to accept a .357 bullet. If the weapons will handle the pressure of loading it to 1500 fps I have no doubt they slug they're using will penetrate deeply enough and expand reliably enough to insure that the target goes down fairly quickly.
One would be hard pressed to get a 9 mm round to move at 1500 fps without reaching dangerous chamber pressures. Speer lists their 9mm +P ammo at a bit over 1200 fps and that's most likely pretty near the max CUP.
They list the 125 gr .357 Sig at 1375 fps at the muzzle. I don't have info on the pressures as I don't reload either of these calibers. I don't know if one could reasonably expect to get another 1250 fps out of that round without also exceeding recommended chamber pressures. If they could it would no doubt be a wicked little round.
As far as the rest of the article goes regarding the dangers of putting holes in the airframe I guess none of them have watched Mythbusters. They pretty much busted the myth that a bullet hole will cause massive decompression in a pressurized aircraft.
I suppose it's possible one could damage hydraulic or electrical lines but everything on modern aircraft is redundant at least 3 times so I wouldn't be too concerned about that.
It seems to me the Marshals are more worried about overpenatrating a target and injuring an innocent passenger. That's a very real concern with almost any bullet. Modern hollow points are designed with that in mind. No good guy wants to take out an innocent by shooting through a bad guy.
But all ammo is a compromise. In order to reliably put a human being down most of the 'experts' I've read say you need at least 12 inches of penetration from nearly any bullet. Almost no one is 12 inches thick from front to back so one almost guarantees that a certain amount of over penetration is designed in from the start.
L
I think an answer to the problem is to use something like the Glaser Safety Slug or Mag-Safe Ammunition. These are loaded with special projectile made by filling a normal bullet jacket with shot and sealing it in place with a plastic plug. The penetration is limited.
And that's also the Glasers shortcoming. It doesn't reliably penetrate deeply enough to cause incapacitating wounds.
Oh it makes big, ugly wounds but they're shallow wounds. And as I pointed out above they often fail to penetrate heavy clothing entirely.
Not a good thing when you're trying to get someone to rapidly cease whatever it is they're doing.
I really think they'd be better off putting 12 guage shotguns loaded with #1 or #4 tactical buck in the cockpits. Lots of deep holes but not a lot of over penetration.
That or they could just issue every passenger who wanted one a Lousiville Slugger at boarding. Yea, one or two might be islamonutjobs but it's a lead pipe cinch they'd be outnumbered by enraged passengers wielding American kiln dried lumber.
L
"Lousiville Slugger at boarding."
I'd prefer a blackjack and brass knuckles myself. Less chance of injuring an innocent.
I couldn't go on after that insane statement...
Semper Fi
The fact that it supposedly came from an Air Marshal gave me a bit of a shudder until I realized that I rarely fly any more.
L
Well yes, IF anyone noticed. The lighter variants are not all that thick, and they aren't metallic or even ceramic. You could walk right through a metal detector with one on under your shirt, and no one would be the wiser.
No that isn't correct, the .357 sig is nearly the same as the .357 magnum, only designed for a semi-automatic. I occasionally shoot .357 sig in my .357 Magnum, they are a little tricky to eject from the cylinder, other than that it works just fine. I don't know what the velocity is, I believe it is a little less than a .357 magnum, but greater than a 9mm.
How about simply not allowing Muslims on aircraft? Seems the simplest and most direct solution to the problem...
This is from a conservative newspaper.
Wikipedia states that the 357 Sig is actually a .40 caliber case necked down to accept a 9mm bullet so I was wrong on my original statement. That's if Wikipedia can be trusted.
Here is some velocity info from Steve's .357 Sig Ballistic Page:
100 grain (6.48 g) Cor-Bon Pow R Ball: 1,703 ft/s (519 m/s)
115 grain (7.45 g) Triton BHP : 1,564 ft/s (477 m/s)
124 grain (8.04 g) Hornady JHP XTP : 1,329 ft/s (405 m/s)
125 grain (8.10 g) Cor-Bon JHP : 1,439 ft/s (439 m/s) --NOMINAL--
125 grain (8.10 g) Federal JHP : 1,299 ft/s (396 m/s) --NOMINAL--
147 grain (9.53 g) Speer JHP GD : 1,186 ft/s (361 m/s)
150 grain (9.72 g) Federal JHP : 1,130 ft/s (344 m/s)
It seems there are quite a few HP loads which the Air Marshals could be experimenting with. If they follow Ayoobs advice (pretty much always a good idea IMO) they'd look at the first two or three cartridges on the above list and see how they work.
L
L
No check that...don't want 300 islamofascists arguing over which landmark inside the Great Satan they want to crash into.
L
It's a necked down .40 S&W. You can swap barrels on a .40 S&W and put a .357 Sig in place. The magazine for the .40 S&W and .357 Sig are the same. The .357 Sig gives similar ballistics to the .357 mag, but you get a higher magazine capacity in the semi-auto pistol compared to a .357 mag revolver.
"How about simply not allowing Muslims on aircraft? Seems the simplest and most direct solution to the problem..."
S'OK with me.
How about the entire country?
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