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The Haditha Stratagem (we've been set-up...of course)
The American Thinker ^ | 6/7/2006 | J.R. Dunn

Posted on 06/07/2006 5:16:01 AM PDT by Dark Skies

We face an Islamist enemy for which no deception, no cruelty, no inhumanity is too low in battling the infidel. I have previously argued that the Jihadis (among others) were fabricating incidents pointing to American involvement in massacres of Iraqi civilians. With the Haditha story, the subject has exploded across the media in a far more disturbing fashion than anyone could have wished. But there is one element that has been all but ignored: clear evidence that the insurgency has gone one step further, to actually contriving massacres involving U.S. troops.

Haditha is one of a flurry of mass-murder accusations leveled against American forces in recent months. Another serious instance occurred in Ishaqi, sixty miles north of Baghdad. On March 16, U.S. troops allegedly attacked the home of a local schoolteacher, killing eleven people, including women and children, before blowing up the house to conceal the crime. A video was released showing the victims being dug out, and the story was verified by local police.

The soldier’s version was more prosaic: coming under fire from the house in question, they called in an AC-130 gunship to level the place. While plucking an injured Al-Qaeda gunman from the wreckage, the troops found four other bodies, including two women and a child. (A similar case in which U.S. soldiers were accused of murdering a family of three in Duluiya, a nearby village, had scarcely begun circulating before it was proven to have actually involved seven grenade-wielding terrorists.)

Ten days later, yet another such “massacre” was revealed in Baghdad itself. Iraqi and U.S. troops raided an office complex held by militiamen, killing sixteen, capturing another eighteen, and rescuing a kidnapping victim. But by the next morning, the offices had been transformed into a mosque, the number of dead had multiplied, and the operation had become an all-American effort.

Initial media interest faded after the kidnap victim denied the mosque claim and revealed the torture scars he’d suffered at the militia’s hands (he refused, probably wisely, to identify which militia it was). By this time, the Ishaqi story had also fallen apart, over conflicting accounts of the incident and the victim’s identities, ages, and relationships to each other—which didn’t prevent a new video from popping up in the wake of the Haditha revelations. (Even as the video made the rounds, the Pentagon announced that the Marines involved had been cleared of all charges.)

What’s striking about the Ishaqi report is its surface similarity to the Haditha incident. Both feature ambushes of U.S. troops, carried out from occupied homes, by a single gunman acting alone.

It’s that last element that raises questions. A single shooter amid a group of unarmed civilians – that’s a strange setup for an ambush. A one-man ambush is a contradiction in terms. A guerilla unit conducting such an operation would use all the men available, to concentrate fire and cause as much damage as possible. A single man may take a pot-shot or two and then break contact. But from a houseful of people, who will inevitably come under fire in return? There’s no reason for that. Not unless it wasn’t an ambush at all. Not unless a completely different effect was intended.

The war in Iraq is a low-level insurrection slowly – all too slowly – grinding to a halt. The insurgents have attempted to take and hold ground in cities like Tal Afar and Fallujah, and have failed. They have attempted to stop the electoral process through intimidation, and have failed. They have attempted to split the country through civil war, and have failed. Few tactics remain to them, one of which is to take a page from the Vietnam playbook and work the media, hoping that upheaval in the U.S. itself will win their war for them. And that requires a My Lai.

So they’ve been trying to arrange one. To create the conditions for a massacre. Ambushing Coalition troops from houses full of helpless, unarmed civilians, hoping that the soldiers would respond with all the firepower at their command, and exposing the resulting carnage to the full glare of the international media. That was the plan at Ishaqi, and it might have worked if the shooter hadn’t survived. That was also the plan at Haditha—and somebody walked right into it. Some young men angered beyond rationality at seeing a friend blown in half by an IED, driven by impulses we will never know, stormed the nearest homes to kill not only the lone terrorist (according to the account in Time, there were two AK-47s but only one gunman), but everyone else as well—man, woman, and child.

If more proof is needed, consider the May 30 USA Today story in which Marine Captain Andrew Del Gaudio described coming under machine-gun fire this past April after an IED killed four of his men. As he was about to engage, he saw that the enemy had placed a line of children in front of the gun, with two video cameras ready to film them as they were shot down. Del Gaudio held his fire, and was injured by the next rounds. His troops flanked the machine-gun nest before attacking, and the children survived. (Further testimony along the same lines in offered in the Wall Street Journal’s June 6 “Best of the Web Today” by a unnamed officer under the heading “Letter from Iraq”.)

Clearly, there is no conceivable way to exaggerate the sheer viciousness of the fanatic Islamist.

None of this excuses the alleged actions of the troops at Haditha. Nothing could excuse that. If guilty, they will be tried and punished as they deserve. But if they were goaded into attacking, if it was a setup, if the terrorists are deliberately working to create such atrocities, then it’s a development we ignore at our peril. The My Lai paradigm must not be allowed to blind us to the possibility. This tactic (if that’s the term I’m groping for) must be investigated, verified, and exposed. Otherwise Haditha, and the media firestorm surrounding it, will simply open the door to a never-ending series of such tragedies. To more lines of children, and more houses full of innocents.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: haditha; marines; massacre; mdm; wot
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: MNJohnnie
You better keep in mind, this is going to follow you around here on Free Republic forever if it turns out to be as fraudulent as it starting to look.

Will your statements about this being made up by the press follow you around Free Republic if it turns out to be non-fraudulent? No, you'll pretend you never made them.

You are basing this WHOLE assumption of yours on accusations by unnamed, unknown "media sources".

Not just media sources--I have a couple of my own, and they're not happy about this one at all. This one's causing heavy-duty rectal puckering all across Camp Pendleton.

A Combat Marine, beyond checking to see if the person is still alive is NOT going to go poking under the dead civilian clothing to figure out what killed them. That not their job.

It is if they're going to write up a statement as to the cause of death. Also, shrapnel wounds don't require "poking around" under their clothing--they will be extremely obvious because the clothing will be shredded (along with their flesh).

Here, try this. There is AS MUCH evidence to back this up as your completely unsubstaniated accusations.

OK.

Marines find dead civilians in building. Know they did not shoot up that building. Ok, must be dead from bomb shrapnel.

Problem with your scenario: it requires the Marines in question to be blind. I wasn't aware that the Marine Corps now has to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act.

81 posted on 06/07/2006 2:28:50 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)
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To: kevkrom
This is the same mentality behind the Palestinean "intifada", which sends their kids out to provoke responses from Israeli soldiers...

And in at least one case I can recall, actually shot the kid themselves when the IDF held fire --- all with the video cameras recording and CNN waiting anxiously to broadcast their propaganda.

82 posted on 06/07/2006 2:30:55 PM PDT by Ditto
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To: El Gato
I'm with you...it is a good article...but his hypothesis about what happened may be wrong...

I am still betting on NO "berserk" Marines, "massacring" civilians. IF those civilians were shot by Marines..there was a dang good reason...but, at this point...I am not believing they did it.
83 posted on 06/07/2006 2:31:29 PM PDT by Txsleuth
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To: MNJohnnie
Accusations are NOT proof of anything.

Thx...bears repeating.

84 posted on 06/07/2006 2:35:28 PM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: Just A Nobody

Bump to support Diana Irey.


DIANA IREY FOR CONGRESS
600 PARK AVENUE
MONONGAHELA, PA 15063
724-258-2300
http://www.irey.com/

http://Vets4Irey.com


85 posted on 06/07/2006 2:36:34 PM PDT by jazusamo (DIANA IREY for Congress, PA 12th District: Retire murtha.)
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To: jazusamo; Just A Nobody; MNJohnnie; SE Mom; Coop; Dog

Look who turned up in this report.....none other than our old friend George Soros.

Haditha: Reason for Doubt

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=22801


86 posted on 06/07/2006 2:40:15 PM PDT by AmeriBrit (ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION IS A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION, IT INCLUDES TERRORIST SLEEPER CELLS!!)
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To: Just A Nobody; All

FYI- I'm posting the DoD transcript from the briefing with General Hagee from the Pentagon today- just came in my e-mail:

TRANSCRIPT from the United States Department of Defense

DoD News Briefing
DoD News Briefing with Gen. Hagee from the Pentagon Wednesday, June, 07, 2006 - 00:00 AM EDT


GEN. HAGEE: Good afternoon, and thank you all for coming this
afternoon.

First, I would like to talk briefly about what it is to be a
Marine and what we Marines hold dear.

You know, we recruit some of the best young people in America. We
only promise them one thing. If they are good enough, morally, mentally and
physically, they could become a Marine. They too could wear the eagle, globe
and anchor. They too could join the most elite military organization the
world has ever seen.

We severely challenge them in boot camp and in officer candidate
school. Those who succeed in becoming Marines know we have high standards on
the battlefield, off the battlefield, on liberty, on leave, wearing the
uniform, discipline. We really want to be the best at whatever we do.

Our recruits are taught -- and it is constantly reinforced -- that
an important part of being a Marine is accomplishing the mission while
adhering to our core values of honor, courage and commitment.

Our high standards, mission focus and selfless service are what
enabled Marines to attack successfully in the Belleau Wood in June of 1918,
after being told that the war was lost and their attack was futile.

These same military virtues resulted in the successful assault on
Iwo Jima in February of 1945.

They're also what enabled the 1st Marine Division to conduct a
successful withdrawal from the Chosin Reservoir when surrounded by 10 Chinese
divisions during the Korean War.


And since 9/11, they have also enabled an estimated 180,000
Marines to perform so superbly in the very dangerous, complex and stressful
environments of Iraq and Afghanistan.

While Marines are proud of our high standards, they also know that
if they violate these tenets, they will be held accountable. Without
accountability, standards would be nothing more than goals. Where compliance
with our standards is in question, we use well-established processes to
determine as accurately and expeditiously as possible what happened and why.
But make no mistake; a Marine who has been found to have violated our
standards will be held accountable. It is an important part of who we are, and
all Marines expect it. High standards and accountability define Marines.

As Commandant, I am gravely concerned about the serious
allegations concerning actions of some Marines at Haditha and Hamdania. I can
assure you that the Marine Corps takes them seriously. As Commandant, I am
the one accountable for organization, training and equipping of Marines. I am
responsible, and I take these responsibilities quite seriously. We are
committed to fully supporting the investigations of both incidents. We want
to ensure the investigations are complete with respect to what actually
happened on the ground and actions taken or not taken by the chain of command.

I have told the commanders who are responsible for the
investigations that the Marine Corps will provide any resources necessary to
help. While we want to complete these processes as expeditiously as possible,
we are committed to ensuring they are thorough, that no avenue of
investigation is left undone, and that due process and the rights of the
affected individuals are protected. If it turns out that an individual
violated rules or regulations, he will be held accountable, regardless of
grade or position.

I need to stress that the investigations are ongoing within the
operational chain of command. Once finished, they will go up the operational
chain to the final adjudicating authority, in this case the commander of
Marine Forces Central Command. Until they are complete, it would be
inappropriate for me to comment on any aspect of the investigations. I refer
all these questions to the operational chain of command for comment at the
appropriate time. We intend to keep you informed to the fullest extent
possible without interfering with the legal process.

As you know, I recently returned from visiting Marines in Iraq and
North Carolina. Among other things, I took this trip to emphasize our ethos,
standards and traditions. I was gratified, but not surprised, to discover
that Marines have no confusion on these subjects. In the near future, I will
visit with Marines in Southern California, Hawaii and Japan. I will tell
them, as I did the Marines in Iraq and North Carolina, how proud I am of their
performance and service to our corps and our country. I will also talk with
them about how I expect them to adhere to our regulations and high standards.
As I did in Iraq and North Carolina, I will talk with senior commanders and
their sergeants major about their responsibilities with regards to training,
teaching, mentoring and setting the example. This is what Marine commanders
have been doing for over 230 years, and we will continue to provide this
leadership.

While I remain concerned about the current allegations, I am
confident the American people recognize that Marines are men and women of the
highest caliber. I ask you to remember that day in and day out, in combat and
in various roles throughout the world today and throughout our history,
Marines have acquitted themselves with honor, dedication and dignity in some
of the most difficult and dangerous environments imaginable. We don't intend
to change.

I'll now take questions. And, Bob, start it off, please.

Q Thank you, General. You mentioned a number of times your
own accountability for training and for what happens in the Marine Corps. And
I'm wondering, given the gravity of what's come to light thus far in the two
cases you cited, why shouldn't you resign as an acknowledgment of failure of
leadership?

GEN. HAGEE: I serve at the pleasure of the president. And I have
not submitted any resignation.

Jim?

Q General, Congressman Murtha said that the allegations of
these reported incidents are a sign -- a further sign -- that the Marines and
soldiers in Iraq are under tremendous combat stress. Is that the case? If
these allegations prove to be true, is that a contributing factor?

GEN. HAGEE: I can -- I visit Iraq about once every two months,
and I can only report on what I have seen in my interaction with the Marines
and with the soldiers over there. And I can tell you that their morale is
really quite high. The operational tempo is also high. They are very proud
in what they're doing. They know they're well-equipped, they know they are
well-trained, and they know that they are making a difference.

Q And they know right from wrong, General?

GEN. HAGEE: They absolutely know right from wrong.

Sir?

Q General, some people have made comparisons between the
Haditha incident and the My Lai massacre during the Vietnam War. In what ways
are these two incidents comparable or not comparable?

GEN. HAGEE: You know, I really believe that it's inappropriate to
make any sort of comparisons until the investigations are complete and we know
what actually happened in those locations.

Q General, as far as I know, all that we have officially on
the record from the military on the Haditha incident is that 15 civilians were
killed by a roadside bomb. Can you now correct for the record that statement
and tell us if that statement was inaccurate?

GEN. HAGEE: Jonathan, as I've said several times, I cannot
comment on anything that has happened in either one of those two incidences
until the investigations are complete.

Q So we're going to let stand the press release that went out
--
GEN. HAGEE: Tom ? Tom?

Q You were a company commander in Vietnam, and a platoon
leader as well. You fought an insurgency. What advice, if any, did you give,
particularly to the junior officers, about your experiences, any parallels to
Vietnam fighting an insurgency?

And one other thing too. If you think the Marines are doing a
pretty good job, why do you feel it's necessary to fly around the world
reminding them of high standards?


GEN. HAGEE: First, on Vietnam, I was a platoon commander in
Vietnam. And as I have mentioned before, one of the challenges of small unit
leadership is to constantly remind the Marines of the standards and that the
-- about the people that you are trying to help in this very dangerous,
complex environment. And I actually talk about that when I talk with Marines.


And as far as flying around the world, you know, as I mentioned, I
go to Iraq every -- just about once every two months. And when I talk with
Marines, I talk about what we stand for and what we are as Marines and the
importance of doing the right thing on any battlefield, but especially this
battlefield.

Q: General, Kathleen Koch with CNN. I know when you were in
Iraq, besides talking to the Marines you were listening as well. What did
they tell you about their thoughts on these allegations, what they're thinking
about them and how it may be impacting their ability to do their jobs?

GEN. HAGEE: First off, I would tell you that they are focused on
what they're doing and focused on their mission. But I think the best way
that I can capture the feeling over there is, in al Asad, I believe it was, I
had -- an NCO stood up and said, "Sir, that's not what we do.

That's not what we're about." And he said, "I want to know what
senior leadership is doing, and I want to know what we can do about that."
And I told him what he can -- what they could do about that is continue to do
what they are doing right now. And they are doing, really, a magnificent job.
As the secretary of Defense said, 99.9 percent of the Marines and soldiers
are doing fabulously over there.

Q I understand the proscription on you talking about the
investigation, but the Marine Corps has taken action against three officers,
the battalion commander and two company commanders. Can you tell us what it
was that they did that caused the Marine Corps to relieve them of command?

GEN. HAGEE: The 1st Marine Division commander, over a period of
time, lost confidence in the abilities of those commanders to effectively
command their units. And he has the authority, he executed it, and he
relieved those three commanders.

Sir?

Q General, I understand this is an ongoing investigation. If
you have information that these allegations are baseless, what benefit can
there be to holding on to it for more weeks, as opposed to getting the facts
out now?


GEN. HAGEE: I hate to repeat myself here, but as long as these
investigations are ongoing, I am not going to comment on the investigations
until I have seen the full investigations.

Q At the risk of getting the same answer, we've been told that
there's -- there was a set of photographs that were taken by a Marine -- an
exploitation team that came into Haditha after the incident. Can you just
tell us whether -- can you confirm the existence of those photographs? Is
there anything you can say about what they show?

GEN. HAGEE: I have seen the photographs, but they are part of the
investigation, and I'm not going to talk about those photographs.

Q General, those of you who have been in combat can probably
understand the stress of the squad or the unit that may have committed the
event in Haditha. Are you more troubled by what may have happened up the
chain of command if senior leaders away from the stress of battle, you know,
may have violated, you know, the Corps' standards by not sufficiently
investigating the thing, immediately?

GEN. HAGEE: I'm concerned any time that there are allegations
that we have -- we may have not done the right thing, whether it was on the
battlefield or up the chain of command, and that's why we're investigating
both of those allegations.

Q General, have you considered relieving anyone in the chain
of command before the investigation is completed?


GEN. HAGEE: I am waiting for those investigations to be complete,
and -- so that I can understand actually what happened both on the ground and
within the chain of command.

Q Sir, the troops in theater are undergoing core values
training sessions. I believe there's two hours of training. Are the Marines
separate, above and beyond, that training that all troops that are receiving
-- are Marines undergoing their own separate training? Are there things that
you're particularly emphasizing, sir?

GEN. HAGEE: Well, first off, as far as the training that has been
directed by the commander over there, we will participate in that training, of
course. We're part of the force.

But as I've already mentioned, when I travel -- and I know
commanders do exactly the same thing -- we talk about standards. We talk
about values when we talk with the troops. This is not a onetime thing. This
is a continuous thing the entire time that you're in the Marine Corps.

STAFF: One last question.
Q General, with several high-profile investigations under way
involving U.S. Marines, do you worry about the impact the attention that these
investigations are getting may have on your Marines elsewhere in Iraq or in
other parts of the world in terms of, you know, the attention that these cases
have gotten compared to what they may be doing?

GEN. HAGEE: You know, in the last week -- last week, I talked
with probably -- I don't know -- 20,000 Marines. And I tell you what, I was
inspired when I talked with them. They are focused on what they're doing.
They are making a difference. They are very proud of what they're doing. And
I can tell you, their families are very proud of what they're doing.

Are they concerned? Yes. But they know that we are going to do
-- we are going to complete those investigations, and if any individual has
been found to have violated our standards, rules or regulations, they will be
held accountable.

Thank you all very much.

(C) COPYRIGHT 2005, FEDERAL NEWS SERVICE, INC., 1000 VERMONT AVE. NW; 5TH
FLOOR; WASHINGTON, DC - 20005, USA. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.


[Web Version: http://defenselink.mil/transcripts/2006/tr20060607-13196.html]

-- News Transcripts: http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/
-- DoD News: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/dodnews.html
-- Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://www.defenselink.mil/news/dodnews.html#e-mail
-- Today in DoD: http://www.defenselink.mil/today/

-- U.S. Department of Defense Official Website - http://www.defenselink.mil
-- U.S. Department of Defense News About the War on Terrorism -
http://www.defendamerica.mil


87 posted on 06/07/2006 2:49:45 PM PDT by SE Mom (God Bless those who serve.)
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To: AmeriBrit; delacoert

Thanks for the link.

delacoert, article referring to Soros #86.


88 posted on 06/07/2006 2:49:45 PM PDT by jazusamo (DIANA IREY for Congress, PA 12th District: Retire murtha.)
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To: AmeriBrit

OMGosh! That b-turd is EVERYwhere! Thanks for the link!


89 posted on 06/07/2006 2:51:24 PM PDT by Just A Nobody (NEVER AGAIN..Support our Troops! www.irey.com and www.vets4Irey.com - Now more than Ever!)
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To: Dark Skies
One of the interesting things about Haditha, and Gitmo, and Abu Ghraib, is that the political class seems much more interested in it than the public do.

I was 15-25 during the height of the Vietnam War, and I remember how compelling all the MSM stuff was - Tet, My Lai, Cambodia, etc, etc. In those examples, the people reacted and moved the politicians.

Here, the politicians are moing without being pushed by the people. In fact, I think the people are very aware that war is hell, that sh*t happens, and nobody I run into is very upset about any of it.

90 posted on 06/07/2006 2:53:37 PM PDT by Jim Noble (And you know what I'm talkin' 'bout!)
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse; wtc911
THE EVIDENCE that proves your accusations fraudulent is in the video tape. That child cannot be shot in the manner were are being told by all you accusers. Could not happen. A bullet into the back of kid that small has to come out somewhere. No way based on where that wound is located could the kid be shot in the manner YOU claim and be be survived.

All you have are accusations based on the "testimony" of the "Iraqi Civil Rights Group" that produced the video. The video clearly demonstrates your source is lying.

I have provided you proof your sole source for your accusations is lying. So what it going to be. Are you FINALLY willing to admit neither of you have even the slightest clue about what went on in Haditha?

91 posted on 06/07/2006 2:57:28 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (I would rather be an Iraqi in a Hidatha guarded by Marines, then a subject of Al-Qeda anywhere.)
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To: SE Mom
Thank you very much for posting this transcript. I will be back to study it a bit later. This caught my eye though.

I was inspired when I talked with them (Marines).
They are focused on what they're doing.
They are making a difference.
They are very proud of what they're doing.
And I can tell you, their families are very proud of what they're doing.

And the grateful American citizens are very proud of them and the difference they are making in the world.

GOD BLESS OUR TROOPS!
DEFENDERS OF FREEDOM - AMERICAN HEROES

92 posted on 06/07/2006 2:58:34 PM PDT by Just A Nobody (NEVER AGAIN..Support our Troops! www.irey.com and www.vets4Irey.com - Now more than Ever!)
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To: MNJohnnie
THE EVIDENCE that proves your accusations fraudulent is in the video tape. That child cannot be shot in the manner were are being told by all you accusers. Could not happen. A bullet into the back of kid that small has to come out somewhere. No way based on where that wound is located could the kid be shot in the manner YOU claim and be be survived.

Then you're saying that there's no way one of my friends survived Vietnam--because that's almost exactly where he got shot. I'll call him tonight and let him know he's been dead almost 40 years.

93 posted on 06/07/2006 3:00:42 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)
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To: StarCMC

Thanks Star!


94 posted on 06/07/2006 3:01:07 PM PDT by Just A Nobody (NEVER AGAIN..Support our Troops! www.irey.com and www.vets4Irey.com - Now more than Ever!)
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To: SE Mom

Thanks for posting this transcript.


95 posted on 06/07/2006 3:02:09 PM PDT by jazusamo (DIANA IREY for Congress, PA 12th District: Retire murtha.)
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse; wtc911
Your accusations are prove false. Clinging to them indicates you want to believe the accusations and merely tune out any evidence that does not validate your emotion based opinions.

Sorry but that renders you completely irrelevant on this topic. You simple will NOT listen to the evidence because you simply refused to admit you are wrong. Sorry but the rest of us have better things to do then to listen to your ignore. Your screaming the lies louder and louder do not make them true.

The accusation made by you and others that the Marines shot these people with deliberate aimed fire inside the building they were in is proven to be a lie by the video. IF that child in the video is shot in the manner YOU claim by the weapons the Marines carry, there is NO way he can be alive. It is a physical impossibility. Since the PHYSICAL evidence presented directly refutes the accusers claims, it proves them to be a liars.

So why are you two clinging to the lie?

96 posted on 06/07/2006 3:08:00 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (I would rather be an Iraqi in a Hidatha guarded by Marines, then a subject of Al-Qeda anywhere.)
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To: MNJohnnie
Your accusations are prove false.

No, they aren't.

You simple will NOT listen to the evidence because you simply refused to admit you are wrong.

The evidence is that false reports were submitted up the chain of command. The question is "why." The innocent explanations proposed do not meet minimum standards of credibility.

The accusation made by you and others that the Marines shot these people with deliberate aimed fire inside the building they were in is proven to be a lie by the video.

No, it is not proven to be a lie.

IF that child in the video is shot in the manner YOU claim by the weapons the Marines carry, there is NO way he can be alive.

The 5.56 NATO round is notorious for not doing fatal injury, and this has been the subject of numerous complaints by troops in the field, which is why the Army was looking at a 6.8mm round a couple years ago.

It is a physical impossibility.

Again: a friend of mine in Vietnam took a 7.62x39 Soviet round in the center of the back, and he's alive and and well. The 7.62x39 has much better terminal ballistics than the 5.56 NATO round does.

One counterexample has completely undone your entire argument.

Since the PHYSICAL evidence presented directly refutes the accusers claims, it proves them to be a liars.

The physical evidence does not refute the claim at all, you merely wish that it did.

97 posted on 06/07/2006 3:13:42 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)
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To: Just A Nobody

BTTT


98 posted on 06/07/2006 3:16:40 PM PDT by E.G.C.
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To: El Gato

Much better, thank you!


99 posted on 06/07/2006 3:18:02 PM PDT by MizSterious (Anonymous sources often means "the voices in my head told me.")
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To: AmeriBrit

If ever an evil man lived..


100 posted on 06/07/2006 3:19:11 PM PDT by SE Mom (God Bless those who serve.)
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