The Haditha Stratagem (we've been set-up...of course)

61 posted on 06/07/2006 1:52:53 PM PDT by Sam Hill

To: BeHoldAPaleHorse

The problem with Haditha is that at least part of the chain of command submitted false reports.

And who told us this? Hmm? Incorrect reports, garbled reports, etc are quite common. It's often called "The Fog of War". Incorrect doesn't mean anyone lied. Any more than George Bush lied. Lying is deliberate falsehood, not merely making false statements.

62 posted on 06/07/2006 1:54:34 PM PDT by El Gato

To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit

Denials of fabricated incidents would be more easily debunked and denied if the US hadn't lost an awful lot of face via Guantanamo and Abu Gharib. Although each is completely justifiable on their own terms, the net affect on the image of America has been serious and significant.

The loss of face, as you put it, over GitMo and Abu Garib were caused by the same sort of sensationalist and often false reporting and commentary we are seeing in this case, and by the same agencies and organizations.

63 posted on 06/07/2006 1:57:58 PM PDT by El Gato

To: BeHoldAPaleHorse; Dark Skies

The problem with Haditha is that at least part of the chain of command submitted false reports

And again, that is nothing more to back that statement up but a Junk Media reported accusation. You really should stop making that as a statement of fact. It isn't known to be a fact. Considering the number of lies, mistatments and exagerations that have all ready been uncovered about this story, people should be VERY careful about repeating Media accusations as facts. The Junk Media is CLAIMING this. AND one of the persons they CLAIMED did it has come out and said "NO, I am not being charged with anything like that at all" So the Marine statement contridicts the accusation. There is utterly NO proof that your accusation is true. Please keep that in mind PH. Accusations are NOT proof of anything.

64 posted on 06/07/2006 1:58:47 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (I would rather be an Iraqi in a Hidatha guarded by Marines, then a subject of Al-Qeda anywhere.)

Incorrect reports, garbled reports, etc are quite common.

After-action reports (supposedly made after the action, when the fog of war has thinned somewhat--hence the name) first said "they were all killed by IED shrapnel." Subsequent reports months later said "some were killed by gunfire."

This isn't "garbled." Gunshot and shrapnel wounds are very different. And unit commanders have a duty to get out of their offices and go to where the stuff has hit the fan to make sure they know what's really going on.

65 posted on 06/07/2006 1:59:36 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)

Freeper Sam Hill has uncovered a lot of information that should make reasonable people question the ~~official~~ cock and bull story the media is handing around

Better?

66 posted on 06/07/2006 2:01:42 PM PDT by El Gato

To: McGavin999; Publius6961; smoothsailing; Just A Nobody; Coop; freema; jazusamo; W04Man; xpertskir; ..

The best thing we can do here on FR to show our faith and support in our troops is to keep this thread alive and in their faces as long as possible.
Anyone got a ping list?

Pinging the Irey/Murtha list

67 posted on 06/07/2006 2:02:06 PM PDT by Just A Nobody (NEVER AGAIN..Support our Troops! www.irey.com and www.vets4Irey.com - Now more than Ever!)

To: wtc911; MizSterious

So, the truth is, you don't know the truth yet, do you

She isn't the one making the accusations here, you are. She is merely pointing out how absurd your statements are given you know nothing at all about what happened. Accusations are not proof of anything. You would be wise to remember that before this thing turns on you. We are NOT going to forget those Freepers who betrayed the troops and spent all their time mindlessly regurgitating the Terrorists accusations.

68 posted on 06/07/2006 2:02:49 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (I would rather be an Iraqi in a Hidatha guarded by Marines, then a subject of Al-Qeda anywhere.)

69 posted on 06/07/2006 2:04:48 PM PDT by Just A Nobody (NEVER AGAIN..Support our Troops! www.irey.com and www.vets4Irey.com - Now more than Ever!)

She isn't the one making the accusations here, you are.....

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That is a lie. Show me where I made any accusation. Go ahead jonny, post my words. You can't because they don't exist, except in your head (as usual).

70 posted on 06/07/2006 2:06:14 PM PDT by wtc911 (You can't get there from here)

The only witnesses were terrorists and/or terrorist sympathizers." is ridiculous...what about the Marines, doesn't their story count for you?

The original poster should have added" The only Witnesses that have been quoted in the media. Although that wouldn't be quite right. There was a Marine who had taken photos after the fact, but wasn't there, and another who was there, but unconscious most of the time after the IED explosion, until well after he was evacuated for medical care.

71 posted on 06/07/2006 2:08:42 PM PDT by El Gato

To: Just A Nobody

I'll use my pinglist when I get home!

BUMP

72 posted on 06/07/2006 2:09:09 PM PDT by StarCMC ("The word of muslims will never, ever override what our U.S. Marines say." - TheCrusader)

Anyone who chooses to ignore all the evidence except one piece of it (the Marines' testimony) is an idiot.

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First of all, the only evidence that matters is the Marines'.

The point is, cupcake, there is no evidence that you have seen or I have seen. And, (I'll try one more time to make it simple for you) I have said nothing except that you do not know the truth (regardless of what you desire) and neither do I (and neither does anyone else here). We will all be better served by waiting to hear what the Marines have to say before declaring (or SHOUTING) that we do and that anybody who doesn't agree with our theories is an, what was the word again, oh, yeah, idiot.

73 posted on 06/07/2006 2:14:45 PM PDT by wtc911 (You can't get there from here)

To: BeHoldAPaleHorse; El Gato

PH, This behavior of yours is REALLY getting to be tiresome. YOU do not KNOW any such thing. Screaming a lie over and over and over does not suddenly make it true. Your claim is a lie.

You better keep in mind, this is going to follow you around here on Free Republic forever if it turns out to be as fraudulent as it starting to look. Actions have consequences. We are NOT going to just forgive and forget those of you who are trying to hang the Marines with NOT A SHRED of proof. This mindless acceptance of the accusations against is going to be brought up EVERY time you post in the future. You are basing this WHOLE assumption of yours on accusations by unnamed, unknown "media sources". That is NOT fact. Would you PLEASE reign in your personal hate for the Marines and act like a rational adult for once?

And again for about the 50th time. Your accusations are pure nonsense. You have NO proof but your own arrogant inability's to admit you actually KNOW nothing about the story. An accusation is NOT proof.

As for you claims that "would know the difference between a shrapnel wound and a bullet wound" Don't be so stupid. A Combat Marine, beyond checking to see if the person is still alive is NOT going to go poking under the dead civilian clothing to figure out what killed them. That not their job.

Here, try this. There is AS MUCH evidence to back this up as your completely unsubstaniated accusations.

Marines find dead civilians in building. Know they did not shoot up that building. Ok, must be dead from bomb shrapnel. THEN, when the accusations are made by the "Iraqi Civil Rights Group" a Investigator goes back and checks the medical report and finds out they were shot not killed by shrapnel. That is a MISTAKE, not a "Falsifying" of records. However, to an ignorant bigot in the Junk Media LOOKING to spin the story to match their Hate the Marines dogma, might CLAIM the report was "Falsified" to lend credibility to their "Marine Massacre" story line. That they MADE the accusation does NOT make it proof.

Your habit of making this accusation as a statement of fact is intellectually indefensible. You have NO proof of any such thing.

74 posted on 06/07/2006 2:15:13 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (I would rather be an Iraqi in a Hidatha guarded by Marines, then a subject of Al-Qeda anywhere.)

It is also interesting how pervasive this story was on Memorial Day. The left, the media & the terorists (that's what the "insurgents" are) have been gleefully looking for things like this. I'm beginning to assume it's a frame-up, and have doubts the Marines will get fair treatment, even by their superiors.

75 posted on 06/07/2006 2:19:29 PM PDT by PghBaldy (If my ancestors acted like the current crop of "immigrants", you would have to "press 2" for Polish.)

Nope. Unlike your childish inablity to admit your initial position was wrong, I actually bothered to read all the news reports, watch the videos and gather all the evidence before addressing this issue. YOu merely took the news reports accusations as gosple.

Since day one you have just mindlessly screamed the accusations over and over and over. Accusations are not facts. A lot of us are curious as to what the motivation is for you, Behold, and Sink to so mindlessly regurgitate the Terrorist accusations as "Fact". They are not. And simply screaming the lie over and over and over as you are will not change them to truth.

This is not going away. IF the story turns out to be as false as it is starting to look, we are going to be coming back to you wanting to know why you were so desperate to repeat the accusations as "fact" when they were not?

76 posted on 06/07/2006 2:21:06 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (I would rather be an Iraqi in a Hidatha guarded by Marines, then a subject of Al-Qeda anywhere.)

To: BeHoldAPaleHorse

AARs are often written up based on oral reports from the participants, with lots of potential for mis interpretation and errors to creep in. Lies can creep in to of course, but if the bodies were obvious shot, why not just say they were shot in the post IED action? Since the bodies aren't available, we can't know if they had .223 holes or .30 holes. By now even if they were, it's going to be difficult to distinguish between the two. There's aren't likely to be any bullets in them either. FMJ rifle bullets fired at point blank range against targets not wearing any body armor, are quite likely to cause in and out wounds.

Lots we don't know, but also lots of reason to be suspicious of all the reports we have, including the leaks about what is in the after action reports.

77 posted on 06/07/2006 2:21:48 PM PDT by El Gato

To: BeHoldAPaleHorse; wtc911

Your sole source for you accusations is this "Iraqi Civil Rights Group". ALL the news reports are based on THIS groups accusations. So, try to explain to me why I should trust evidence presented by a group the video proves is clearly lying? http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/31/haditha/index.html Video on lower right hand side of the screen. Called "Haditha Uncovered. Go watch it. Perhaps someone can explain to me the logical and factual flaws in the "Iraqi Civilian Right Groups" "story. How can these facts be logically reconciled with what the Iraqis, and some supposed Freepers, are accusing the Marines of doing? To Quote Time Magazine: "According to published reports, a number of Marines from the storied 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines, 1st Marine Division are accused killing more than 20 Iraqi civilians in retaliation for the death of one of their comrades by a roadside bomb in November, 2005." Okie, 20 Dead Civilians. Which we are told were all shot thus supposedly proving "the Marines falsified the original report". So what could just be an honest mistake between a Marine's assumption on the spot of cause of death in his After Action Report (We didn't fire up the building, they were dead, must of been the bomb shrapnel) with a medical examiners report filed after a autopsies is NOW claimed by the accusers as"proof" that the "Marines Lied". Ok so the accusation is they were all shot to death at short range in a building that had not been penetrated by any rounds from outside. No bullet holes in the building, must mean it was not Collateral Damage but a deliberate act is the accusers claims. In other words the accusers claim the Marines shot to death the Iraqis inside the building as a deliberate act not an accident of war. In fact, Some are running around claiming a shrapnel wound is so obviously different that a Combat Infantry Marine would know the difference between the two. Leave aside the obviously question why would Infantry Marine would be examining the wounds of dead Civilians, lets assume, that is correct. Ok, then how come the "survivors" as interviewed for CNN by the "Iraqi Civil Rights group" are making such obviously absurd claims on the video? "They burned the room with my father in it then threw a bomb"? Neat trick that. How they "Burn the room"? We don't use flame throwers. "Threw a bomb" but the accusers are telling us it all gun shot wounds. "a Bomb" inflict shrapnel wounds. Notice also the mannerism of the "children survivors". Having come thru what would of been the most terrifying event of their lives and being forced to talk about it again, yet the kids show no hesitation or emotion. Just a dull recital of supposed "Facts" as if they were reciting a story as an memorization assignment in School. Very strange that. Absolutely no real emotion, just a breathless recital of "Facts" Then when done speaking look over to the person standing to the right of the camera (You can see his shadow behind the kids). Sure looks like kids looking at a teacher to see how they did in reciting their "lesson" Then there is the part where the "Iraqi Civil Rights Group" filming the kids told the Iraqi boy to "show his wounds". It must not of occurred to the "Iraqi Civil Rights Group" making the video to consider the Iraqi boy's supposed "wound". Apparently no one bothered to think about where he was "shot". The supposed "wound" supposedly inflicted by US Marines at point blank range, (as claimed by the "Iraqi Civil Rights Group)" is directly over his spine. Yet when told he got up and turned around for the camera to "Show his wounds"? If he HAD been shot there, he would at a minimum be crippled for life, his spine severed just below the neck. So all this is being based on the claims of an "Iraqi Civil Rights Group" which are demonstrated to be lying.

Since they lied about this, what ELSE might they have lied about? So maybe some one can explain these inconsistencies in the "witnesses" testimony? Some "Americans", especially in the Junk Media, maybe want to rethink their rush to judgment on these Marines

78 posted on 06/07/2006 2:24:57 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (I would rather be an Iraqi in a Hidatha guarded by Marines, then a subject of Al-Qeda anywhere.)

Since day one you have just mindlessly screamed the accusations over and over

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Tell you what head case, post even one of my posts wherein I accused the Marines of anything and I will leave here forever....go ahead...my words are there to be found...

What will you offer in return if you can't find anything? Put up or shut up jonny.

79 posted on 06/07/2006 2:26:04 PM PDT by wtc911 (You can't get there from here)

80 posted on 06/07/2006 2:27:22 PM PDT by Ditto

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