Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The universe before it began
Seed Magazine ^ | 5/22/06 | Maggie Wittlin

Posted on 05/24/2006 3:59:24 PM PDT by LibWhacker

Scientists use quantum gravity to describe the universe before the Big Bang.

Scientists may finally have an answer to a "big" question: If the Big Bang was the beginning of the universe, what could have caused it to happen?

Using a theory called "loop quantum gravity," a group led by Penn State professor Abhay Ashtekar has shown that just before the Big Bang occurred, another universe very similar to ours may have been contracting. According to the group's findings, this previous universe eventually became so dense that a normally negligible repulsive component of the gravitational force overpowered the attractive component, causing the universe to "bounce" apart. This big bounce is what we now know as the Big Bang. The group published its analysis in the April 12th issue of Physical Review Letters.

"These equations tell us that in fact there is another pre-Big Bang branch of the universe, and then we tried to understand what it looks like," Ashtekar said. "[Surprisingly], the universe again looks very much classical.

"So there is another universe on the other side which is joined to our universe in a deterministic way," he concluded.

Coauthor Parampreet Singh, a postdoc at Penn State, said that Einstein's theory of general relativity describes the current universe very well, but it breaks down when it encounters the extreme density of the universe around the time of the Big Bang.

"[General relativity] gives physical singularities when we ask questions about the physics near the Big Bang," he said. "Unless this problem is solved, or unless a solution of this problem is known, we do not have a complete description of the universe."

Physicists have developed theoretical systems, such as string theory, to unite general relativity with quantum mechanics and explain the very early universe. In the late 1980s, Ashtekar published the first paper on loop quantum gravity, a theory which applies quantum mechanical principles to examine the spacetime continuum. According to his model, there is no continuum: Smooth, continuous space is only an approximation of an underlying quantized structure, one that is made up of discrete units.

Loop quantum gravity also predicts a small repulsive component of gravitational force, which is a non-factor in other theories. At most densities, even the extremely high density of an atom's nucleus, this component has no significant effect. But as density increases, approaching 1075 times the nuclear density, this repulsion begins to dominate. According to the Ashtekar's equations, this appears to be what happened to the universe before ours: As it collapsed, it became so dense that gravity started to, in a sense, work backwards, birthing our universe.

Singh, Ashtekar's postdoc, noted that the group's conclusions are eerily similar to findings published by Princeton researcher Paul Steinhardt two weeks ago. Using string theory, Steinhardt concluded that the universe may be cyclic, with each crunch leading to a bounce.

But Steinhardt said the two papers are only distantly related:

"It is an idealized set-up which does not connect smoothly to realistic cosmology," he said via e-mail about the Penn State paper. "By contrast, our scenario is designed so that it connects smoothly to Einstein gravity and standard Hubble expansion, so that it reproduces the astronomical conditions we observe today."

Ashtekar acknowledge that his work addresses the idealized situation of a homogeneous, isotropic universe, one that is uniform in space and uniform in all directions—the model does not account for heterogeneities such as galaxies.

"This picture does hold up in kind of simple generalizations," he said. "The key question is really if this prediction is going to hold up with more and more realistic models."


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: abhayashtekar; ashtekar; astronomy; bang; before; began; big; bigbang; bigbounce; bigcrunch; bounce; cosmology; crunch; cyclic; einstein; expansion; force; goddooditamen; gravitational; gravity; hubble; idealized; india; loop; ludditebait; mechanics; model; mybrainhurtsfromthis; nothingfromnothing; quantum; repulsive; space; string; stringtheory; theory; thumperbait; universe
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 121-126 next last
To: Hodar

The heavier elements are created in supernovae. Every atom in your body, except for the hydrogen, has been through a star at least one time.


21 posted on 05/24/2006 4:27:11 PM PDT by GW and Twins Pawpaw (Sheepdog for Five [My grandkids are way more important than any lefty's feelings!])
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker

BTTT


22 posted on 05/24/2006 4:27:23 PM PDT by ADemocratNoMore (Jeepers, Freepers, where'd 'ya get those sleepers?. Pj people, exposing old media's lies.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Kenny Bunkport
Where did that universe come from?

I was asked that question in High School theology class years ago. My smart-ass answer was "the same place God came from"

A cyclical universe would have no beginning nor end, just big-banging, expanding, contracting, and big-banging again

23 posted on 05/24/2006 4:27:33 PM PDT by SauronOfMordor (A planned society is most appealing to those with the arrogance to think they will be the planners)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: GW and Twins Pawpaw

Aha!... But how many stars has the average atom been through?


24 posted on 05/24/2006 4:29:55 PM PDT by LibWhacker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker
So now a "Big Bounce" replaces the "Big Bang." Apparently an unspecified number of them.

So, how did this start? Or did it have no start, but has been oscillating in this fashion for eternity? How can we know?

25 posted on 05/24/2006 4:31:20 PM PDT by nonsporting
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Kenny Bunkport
So did God do the "Samantha Nose Wiggle" or was more like Genie's "Cross your Arms and Blink"?

What is the technical explanation for God's creation of the Universe?

26 posted on 05/24/2006 4:32:54 PM PDT by Doe Eyes
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker

Who knows? But that's where the little buggers are assembled.:-)


27 posted on 05/24/2006 4:34:32 PM PDT by GW and Twins Pawpaw (Sheepdog for Five [My grandkids are way more important than any lefty's feelings!])
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker

Talk about mythology. Back to infinite regression.


28 posted on 05/24/2006 4:34:58 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker
"loop quantum gravity,"

Would you not get more defined results by peeing in the wind.

29 posted on 05/24/2006 4:40:28 PM PDT by org.whodat (Never let the facts get in the way of a good assumption.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Hodar
Nice try. The Big Bang theory predicts that after the universe cooled to a point where atoms could form (in the first couple of minutes), hydrogen dominated at about 90%, helium followed at about 10%, and minute traces of deuterium (0.015%) and lithium formed. Eventually stars formed and through nuclear fusion higher elements formed. What is interesting is that depending upon the size of the star, only certain elements could form. For example, in smaller stars fusion could only produce up to oxygen. But even in the largest stars, the highest that could be produced by fusion is iron (so that it could remain an exothermic reaction). To form elements past iron, the star had to supernova (which produced elements up to uranium).

Based upon these theories, you would see that most of the universe would be hydrogen, followed by helium. And you would see waste that was blown off of stars (and perhaps forming future generation stars) would be relatively high in elements with an atomic mass less than iron but very low in elements higher than iron. Certain elements such as iron and oxygen (that represent an end to a chain of reactions) would have extremely high concentrations.

This is one of the reasons that the Big Bang Theory has so much support. It's because nuclear physics works like clockwork.
30 posted on 05/24/2006 4:48:44 PM PDT by burzum (Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.--Adm. Rickover)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Hodar
As I understand things, the distribution of elements from a 'pure energy' perspective, should be very heavy in the Hydrogen, Helium and taper to a stop around Fe (iron).

I'm not sure where you're getting this but I'll accept it for the sake of argument.

That doesn't match reality, because we have tons of Silicon, Carbon, Oxygen, Nitrogen, Copper, Zinc.

Right. Carbon, Nitrogen, Silicon, and Oxygen are all way lower in the Periodic Table than Iron, so adopting your theory, you would expect them to be more plentiful. Copper and Zinc are in the same row. Titanium and Vanadium are actually LOWER than Iron in the PT. So you would expect them to be MORE abundant, but in fact they're relatively rare.

As you move up the Periodic Table, the frequency of these elements get more and more rare.

And they do, generally speaking. So you've just defeated our own argument. Or did I misunderstand something?

31 posted on 05/24/2006 5:00:06 PM PDT by IronJack
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Publius6961
... WTF did THAT universe come from... ?

...and where did that come from, and where did that come from, and that one and that one?

"Scientists" study things they claim are trillions of years old...and never come up with an answer, just postulation. As much proof as we can come up with for there being G-D. I'll stick with my postulation and..."excuse me while I kiss the sky".

FMCDH(BITS)

32 posted on 05/24/2006 5:02:17 PM PDT by nothingnew (I fear for my Republic due to marxist influence in our government. Open eyes/see)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker
It is an idealized set-up which does not connect smoothly to realistic cosmology

This is polite language.

33 posted on 05/24/2006 5:02:23 PM PDT by RightWhale (Off touch and out of base)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: org.whodat
Would you not get more defined results by peeing in the wind.

Yes. I can attest to that, although peeing into the wind is much more defining.

FMCDH(BITS)

34 posted on 05/24/2006 5:04:58 PM PDT by nothingnew (I fear for my Republic due to marxist influence in our government. Open eyes/see)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: LibWhacker
Scientists may finally have an answer to a "big" question: If the Big Bang was the beginning of the universe, what could have caused it to happen?

Kids playing with matches.

35 posted on 05/24/2006 5:05:32 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (I LIKE you! When I am Ruler of Earth, yours will be a quick and painless death </Stewie>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: nothingnew
"Scientists" study things they claim are trillions of years old...and never come up with an answer, just postulation.

Billion of years old, not trillions. But the rest is correct. But what would you expect? To expect anything else is to not understand how science works. To explain why is in the realm of philosophers.

36 posted on 05/24/2006 5:07:20 PM PDT by burzum (Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, small minds discuss people.--Adm. Rickover)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: DonaldC
I wish I was smart enough to get paid to sit around and think this crap up.

I wish I was smart enough to figure this crap out for free.

37 posted on 05/24/2006 5:09:02 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (I LIKE you! When I am Ruler of Earth, yours will be a quick and painless death </Stewie>)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: freedumb2003

Yeah, but look on the bright side: at least this proves we're all into recycling in a big way. )


38 posted on 05/24/2006 5:11:28 PM PDT by Heatseeker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: Sterlis
The same science that can not explain how aspirin works ...

I think our Medical Professionals understand this quite well. Would you like me to point out some web sites for you?

39 posted on 05/24/2006 5:12:16 PM PDT by Doe Eyes
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: freedumb2003

ping


40 posted on 05/24/2006 5:13:05 PM PDT by TYVets (God so loved the world he didn't send a committee)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 121-126 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson