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Defending science education against intelligent design: a call to action
American Society for Clinical Investigation ^ | 01 May 2006 | Alan D. Attie, Elliot Sober, Ronald L. Numbers, etc.

Posted on 05/03/2006 8:23:06 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

We review here the current political landscape and our own efforts to address the attempts to undermine science education in Wisconsin. To mount an effective response, expertise in evolutionary biology and in the history of the public controversy is useful but not essential. However, entering the fray requires a minimal tool kit of information. Here, we summarize some of the scientific and legal history of this issue and list a series of actions that scientists can take to help facilitate good science education and an improved atmosphere for the scientific enterprise nationally. Finally, we provide some model legislation that has been introduced in Wisconsin to strengthen the teaching of science.

The past decade has seen breathtaking progress in evolutionary biology, thanks largely to the fruits of genome sequencing projects. The molecular footprints linking all life on the planet are now fleshed out in rich detail, and we possess a chronometer of molecular evolution going all the way back to early bacteria. This has sparked a renaissance of interest in speciation, development, and evolutionary aspects of disease susceptibility and resistance. The importance of evolution to biology was properly summarized by White House Science Adviser John Marburger when he said, "Evolution is the cornerstone of modern biology. Period. What else can you say?" (1).

In a parallel universe, a majority of Americans, 54%, do not believe human beings evolved, according to one poll (2). Only 38% agree with the statement, "human beings evolved from an earlier species" (3). Opposition to evolutionary theory has existed since Darwin. Efforts to eradicate or dilute the teaching of evolution persist throughout the nation despite consistent rejection in the courts. Conservative think tanks, religious fundamentalists, and influential magazines such as National Review continue their attempts to introduce pseudo-science into science classrooms. This movement has gained the support of such prominent politicians as President George W. Bush, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, and Senator John McCain. Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, a onetime biology major, said, "our school systems teach the children they are nothing but glorified apes who have evolutionized out of some primordial soup of mud" (4). Even the definition of science itself has fallen victim to political attack; the state board of education in Kansas decided that the supernatural may now be taught as science in the classroom. Some have claimed that the challenge to evolution is symptomatic of a broader, more generic attack on science itself (5).

Scientists can no longer afford to let these challenges go unopposed. The wide gap between established facts accepted by scientists and the sentiments sampled in the polls reflects a failure of science education. For this, scientists, particularly those in academia, must take some responsibility. The remedies are educational and political and must involve scientists and non-scientists. Instituting an effective response does not require large blocks of time, nor need it involve debates with creationists: small actions can have large effects.

The road to Dover.

In 1968, the US Supreme Court unanimously ruled that an Arkansas law banning the teaching of evolution violated the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution. The Court ruled that the Arkansas law had a religious purpose — namely, to oppose teachings perceived to conflict with the biblical story of creation. Following this defeat, opponents of evolution adopted two strategies. First, they advocated the teaching of creationism as an alternative scientific explanation, along with evolution. Second, they began to adopt scientific jargon to give creationism a veneer of science. Two states, Arkansas and Louisiana, passed laws mandating this "balanced" treatment of evolution and creationism.

This set the stage for the Arkansas trial of 1982 (McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education), which was almost entirely focused on the question "Is creationism science?" Judge William R. Overton stated in his opinion (6) that creationism fails to be a science because it fails to satisfy the following requirements: "(a) it is guided by natural law; (b) it has to be explanatory by reference to natural law; (c) it is testable against the empirical world; (d) its conclusions are tentative, i.e. are not necessarily the final word; and (e) it is falsifiable."

The issue returned to the Supreme Court in 1986–1987. The Court ruled 7–2 in Edwards v. Aguillard that Louisiana’s law calling for the balanced treatment of evolution ("evolution-science" and "creation-science") violated the First Amendment "because it lacks a clear secular purpose" and it "impermissibly endorses religion by advancing the religious belief that a supernatural being created humankind" (7).

The creationists once again mutated and adapted. After the Edwards ruling, they set about removing references to God and creationism from their tracts. For example, as revealed at the Dover trial (8), the authors of the intelligent design (ID) text Of pandas and people: the central question of biological origins stripped the direct mentions of creationism present in early drafts of the text and systematically substituted the novel term "intelligent design" (9).

The evolution of creationism.

ID is the contemporary version of an argument that has a long history. It was given a succinct formulation by William Paley in the early 19th century. Modern defenders of the design argument contend that living things are too complex to have evolved by the process of natural selection; rather, their "irreducible complexity" is convincing evidence of the hand of an intelligent designer. ID theory’s contemporary advocates, who include Lehigh University biochemistry professor Michael Behe, cite complex systems such as the blood-clotting cascade, the flagellar motor, and the human eye to argue that because these systems would be nonfunctional if even a single component part were excised, they could not have evolved by mutation/natural selection and therefore must have been "intelligently designed." The argument can be boiled down to this: complexity is itself evidence of a designer. In its current version, ID conveniently omits mention of God.

However, ID is not a scientific theory. The premise for the arguments of Behe and other ID proponents is deeply flawed, scientifically and philosophically. Behe assumes that the component parts of irreducibly complex systems never had other functions in older organisms. This is contradicted by scientific evidence. The Dover trial transcripts are illuminating (see "The Dover trial") (8). Under oath, Behe was forced to concede that there are organisms that lack some of the mammalian clotting proteins. Proteins that are present in the flagellar motor have orthologs that are involved in unrelated functions. A recent elegant example of proteins acquiring a new function within a complex system can be seen in a structure that functioned in respiration in fish and later evolved to be part of the mammalian inner ear (10).

ID makes no testable predictions. There is nothing in this concept that allows for scientific investigation of the "designer." It is simply an argument by default; the failure to explain something is said to lend credence to a supernatural explanation. The attempt to promote this as science is deeply misguided. In spite of uncounted hundreds of thousands of scientific studies published in the last 50 years, there are still demonstrable gaps in what we know about the evolution of life on this planet. However, those studies tell us a great deal about how life came to be as it is and now form the foundation of modern biology. ID, by contrast, has produced nothing.

The Discovery Institute.

The engine behind the ID movement is the Discovery Institute, founded in 1990 by Bruce K. Chapman. Today, the institute receives more than $4 million per year from numerous foundations, most with religious missions. The center’s objectives are outlined in its "Wedge Strategy," which was leaked and posted on the Internet (11). The document states that the Discovery Institute "seeks nothing less than the overthrow of materialism and its cultural legacies" and "to replace materialistic explanations with theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God." Its goals are to see ID theory as the dominant perspective in science; to see design theory applied in specific fields, including molecular biology, biochemistry, paleontology, physics, and cosmology in the natural sciences and ethics, politics, theology, and philosophy in the humanities; to see its influence in the fine arts; and to see design theory permeate our religious, cultural, moral, and political life.

The Dover decision.

In Dover, Pennsylvania, 2005, 11 parents sued to reverse a school board requirement that the following statement be read to students: "because Darwin’s Theory is a theory, it continues to be tested as new evidence is discovered. The Theory is not a fact. Gaps in the Theory exist for which there is no evidence. A theory is defined as a well-tested explanation that unifies a broad range of observations" (Kitzmiller et al. v. Dover Area School District) (12). The required statement referred only to evolution. The third paragraph in the statement read: "Intelligent design is an explanation of the origin of life that differs from Darwin’s view. The reference book, Of pandas and people (9), is available for students who might be interested in gaining an understanding of what intelligent design actually involves."

In his decision, Judge John E. Jones stated that ID is essentially Paley’s argument for the existence of God, with God left unmentioned. In short, ID is a religious doctrine. He noted that Behe "claims that the plausibility argument for ID depends upon the extent to which one believes in the existence of God"; thus, "ID is a religious and not a scientific proposition." He characterized ID as "nothing less than the progeny of creationism." Jones stated that the Dover school statement forces a "false duality" on students by making them choose between God/ID and atheism/science and "singles out the theory of evolution for special treatment, misrepresents its status in the scientific community, causes students to doubt its validity without scientific justification, presents students with a religious alternative masquerading as a scientific theory, directs them to consult a creationist text as though it were a science resource, and instructs students to forego scientific inquiry in the public school classroom and instead to seek out religious instruction elsewhere."

The Dover case was an important victory for science education. Judge Jones wrote a strongly worded, carefully crafted opinion that should guide future litigation (12). The transcripts of the Dover trial constitute an excellent educational resource, rich in testimony about the nature of science, the evidence for evolution, and the history of deceit in the creationism/ID movement.

The "teach the controversy" hoax.

The ID movement employs a tactic that appeals to the American tradition of "fairness and balance." ID advocates argue that since there is a controversy over evolution, we should "teach the controversy" in public school science classrooms.

The "controversy" is manufactured. Evolutionary biology draws strength from a supporting scientific literature extending across 150 years that includes literally hundreds of thousands of individual papers. Creationists offer no science. In some cases, they have misrepresented science in their efforts to debunk it. For example, in Of pandas and people (9), evolutionary lineages are presented as straight lines linking species, rather than as parts of a tree structure. The incorrect linear model is then used to argue that cytochrome c homology patterns do not conform to evolutionary predictions.

The "just a theory" hoax.

Creationists purposefully confuse the two meanings of the word "theory." In common usage, a theory connotes a statement that is tentative or hypothetical. This is the meaning implied in the frequent claim of ID advocates that evolution is "just a theory." However, science uses the term "theory" differently. When substantiated to the degree that evolutionary theory has been, a theory is regarded as a fact. Practicing biologists operate within the rich context of evolutionary theory, and no part of modern biology, including medicine (13), is completely understandable without it. Scientific arguments are not qualified with clauses that allow for a nonevolutionary scenario.

The "fair and balanced" hoax.

In the name of "fairness and balance," the media have decided to present "two sides" of this story. For example, a day after the Dover decision, National Public Radio aired a commentary by a Heritage Foundation fellow comparing ID to the Big Bang Theory, predicting that eventually it will be widely accepted by scientists (14). By giving uncritical treatment to "both sides," the media convey to the public the false impression that this is a genuine scientific controversy and that each has a substantial body of evidence and convincing argumentation. Journalists should be mindful of the fact that no science supports creationism/ID; 150 years of biological, geological, and physical science supports the modern synthesis of Darwin’s theory. The individuals with scientific credentials who support ideas such as ID actually constitute a rather small group, as recently described in a New York Times article (15).

The "persecuted scientist against the establishment" hoax.

Another plea often articulated by ID proponents is the idea that there is a community of ID scientists undergoing persecution by the science establishment for their revolutionary scientific ideas. A search through PubMed fails to find evidence of their scholarship within the peer-reviewed scientific literature. In the original Wedge document, a key part of the plan to displace evolutionary biology was a program of experimental science and publication of the results. That step has evidently been skipped.

The constant, unanswered assault on evolution is harmful to science and science education. ID and its progeny rely on supernatural explanations of natural phenomena. Yet all of science education and practice rests on the principle that phenomena can be explained only by natural, reproducible, testable forces. Teaching our students otherwise disables the very critical thinking they must have in order to be scientists and is a fundamental distortion of the scientific process. ID is therefore not simply an assault on evolution: it is an assault on science itself.

ID groups have threatened and isolated high school science teachers. Well-organized curricular challenges to local school boards place teachers in the difficult position of arguing against their employers. We have spoken with high school science teachers who feel censored in their efforts to teach the basic principles of science. The legal challenges to local school districts are costly and divert scarce funds away from education into court battles. Although these court battles result in the defeat of ID, they are draining and divisive to local schools.

Finally, the assault on evolution and science threatens our nation’s scientific and technological leadership. Political and economic agendas are interfering with the free flow of scientific information. For example, political appointees have ordered scientists at NASA to eliminate references to the Big Bang Theory and to cease to mention the eventual death of the sun billions of years from now in their comments and publications. Other scientists have been cautioned about speaking out on global warming. These actions disrupt the long-standing tradition of public policy based on the consensus of the scientific community.

[snip]

There is a wide range of actions that each scientist can take to facilitate good science education. Our experience has shown repeatedly that every action carries weight and represents a very productive use of time. Some of these require little time; some require a more substantial commitment.

Educate yourself.

A few hours with publications available on the websites of the National Academy of Sciences, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, or the National Center for Science Education can help clarify the issues and provide the preparation needed for an effective scientific response to challenges (see Table 1). The decision rendered by Judge Jones in the Dover decision is a particularly excellent resource and is well worth reading in its entirety.

Write letters.

Write to legislators and newspapers. Write to school boards considering actions that might undermine science education. Write to government leaders. Respond to comments made by ID proponents wherever they might appear. The letters need not be long, and even one letter every few months will have a large effect. This is an activity that can and should fit into the schedule of every working scientist. Similarly, call in to talk shows featuring pro- or antiscience guests. Every letter written by authors of this paper has elicited a positive response. The ID program consists entirely of public relations efforts. They have had this playing field to themselves for too long.

Organize campus evolution groups.

This provides an informal way to husband campus resources in evolutionary biology. Seminar series are useful. Regular meetings to plan special events such as Darwin Day celebrations can serve as outreach exercises.

Organize educational support teams.

Scientists can be a compelling resource for teachers in K–12 science programs who are facing pressure from school boards or parents to alter good science curricula in ways that harm students. If a group of such scientists can be organized, individuals need not face unreasonable demands on time, and the group as a whole can provide valuable assistance to educators within the scientists’ state.

Participate in outreach activities.

Go to local schools and talk to classes about science in general and evolution in particular. Go to school board meetings when appropriate and talk to school board members. Talk to local business groups.

Organize educational sessions at national and international meetings.

Major scientific professional societies should embark on a concerted educational effort, directed both at educating scientists about the problem and arming them for an effective response. Resources also must be made available for science teachers at the K–12 levels. Travel grants, where available, should be concentrated on K–12 teachers to make attendance possible.

Revise textbooks.

Scientists engaged in textbook writing should be more cognizant of the need to educate future scientists and science teachers about evolutionary biology. Additional education is required to explain what science is, what defines a scientist, and how the various forms of the scientific method constitute a consistent whole.

Become more effective lobbyists for legislation that improves the atmosphere for science and science funding.

We urge scientists in all 50 states to work with their respective legislatures to enact legislation similar to the bill just introduced in the Wisconsin Legislature. This movement should appeal to a widely shared interest to uphold the standards of science education and should transcend political ideology.

Make yourself available at least occasionally as a local resource.

Creationists are not deterred by the Dover case. There are troubling situations brewing in almost every state. Scientists should use these new cases as teaching opportunities in their own classrooms and should be willing to testify and support the cause of science education in the courtroom.

Teach.

For academic scientists, there is no greater responsibility than the education of our citizenry, and there is no activity that has a greater impact. For too long, educational programs in biology at the college level have neglected to provide a solid grounding in evolutionary biology, despite its central importance. This background has been left to unstandardized mentions in core courses and to upper-level specialized courses that are often not required. A nationwide overhaul of these programs is essential. New introductory courses are needed to provide a background in evolutionary biology at the very beginning of all programs leading to science or science education degrees, and the courses should be required. New lower-level courses for nonmajors, pitched at a level appropriate for students with minimal science background, are needed to expose as many citizens as possible to evolutionary theory and to introduce them to science.

Work with your legislators.

Identify legislators who are friends of science and work with them, as we have in Wisconsin, to introduce legislation that supports and strengthens science education.

Work with clergy.

As Judge Jones indicated, the creationists have fostered a false duality between science and religion. A majority of people do not hold a literal young-earth interpretation of the Bible. The clerical community has a shared interest in keeping science and religion apart. They do not want religion to be presented as science and, like a large block of religious scientists, do not see any conflict between religious belief and evolutionary theory.

Whether in crafting a tax code, making health care decisions, evaluating the economy, exploring the resolution of world conflicts, evidence-based thinking is the best intellectual tool in our possession. In science, controversies are usually temporary. When scientists have divergent hypotheses, they usually agree on the key experiments that will favor one hypothesis over others. This is because there is a consensus that framing questions in a way that is subject to the test of evidence is the most progressive way to advance knowledge and understanding. In an ideal world, such principles ought to be widely embraced. Students should learn the difference between hard evidence and speculation. They should understand the elements of logic and clear, critical thinking. They need to understand how to suspend belief while gathering and evaluating evidence.

As George Orwell observed, "a mere training in . . . sciences . . . is no guarantee of a humane or skeptical outlook." Yet Orwell advocated universal science education if such an education was structured to focus on "acquiring a method — a method that can be used on any problem that one meets — and not simply piling up a lot of facts" (18).

Within universities, the cultural gap between the sciences and the humanities needs to be bridged. A useful approach is to create courses in critical thinking that combine science and the humanities. Ideally, such courses would include an exploration of contemporary problems from the combined perspectives of the sciences and the humanities, united in the common theme of evidence-based, critical thinking. Given that our universities play a large role in the training of the next generation of government and corporate leadership, investing in a future better guided by evidence-based, critical thinking is the most important investment we can make.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: crevolist; pavlovian; puppetmasters; scienceeducation; usualsuspects; yomommaisanape
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
And how does that make you feel?

lol

"Why do you think that I am an idiot?"

721 posted on 05/05/2006 4:35:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: andysandmikesmom
...shall we try for 3?

Let's try GHOST: where them black things come up outta the sewer and GET that guy!

722 posted on 05/05/2006 4:35:57 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: andysandmikesmom
Duh...and I was too dense to catch on...shame on me...

No, you merely had no experience with the program before.

It was quite a time waster for me, years ago.

Typing all kinds of things in, trying to get a list of all the possible responses and what words it was pinging upon.

723 posted on 05/05/2006 4:39:08 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: HappyFeet

**Agreed. Therefore, it doesn't belong in a science classroom.

Of course it should. God supersedes all sciences."

So creationism should be in a science classroom, even though, as you have admitted,

"Creationism is not a science..."

?

Sorry, theology doesn't belong in a science classroom.


724 posted on 05/05/2006 4:41:14 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: Coyoteman
Nobody is harassing you properly on this thread, Elsie, so I guess its up to me to stir the pot.

That's 'cause all the others love me so!


Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily.

So... you think that it's NOT a sin to hurt people on purpose then?

725 posted on 05/05/2006 4:43:22 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Elsie; Coyoteman
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily.

So... you think that it's NOT a sin to hurt people on purpose then?"

He said unnecessarily, he did not say accidentally. There's a difference.
726 posted on 05/05/2006 4:46:47 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: Coyoteman

Your suggestion is but a classic red herring. Public school science classes need not launch into all these different cultural accounts of creation in order to operate under the general assumption of intelligent design. At the same time it is not the prerogative of legislatures to prohibit mention of any of your cherished creation stories in a public, academic, scientific context.


727 posted on 05/05/2006 5:36:58 AM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Would you mind stating the theory of evolution and pointing out where this "unique moral obligation to acknowledge [the] creator" appears?

I don't recall ever noticing it.

728 posted on 05/05/2006 6:34:48 AM PDT by Condorman (Prefer infinitely the company of those seeking the truth to those who believe they have found it.)
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To: bondserv
The point of the over 450 scientists that signed the Discovery Institute document is that Macroevolution via RMNS based on the evidence is not a convincing mechanism to create the complexity we see in living organisms.

How many of them were named "Steve?"

729 posted on 05/05/2006 6:40:06 AM PDT by Condorman (Prefer infinitely the company of those seeking the truth to those who believe they have found it.)
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To: Condorman
Would you mind stating the theory of evolution and pointing out where this "unique moral obligation to acknowledge [the] creator" appears?

I don't recall ever noticing it.

Then why do you care whether or not evolution is taught in classrooms? Because evolution is "true?" Why do you care whether truth or falsehood is taught in schools? Why do you care about anything at all?

In the absence of G-d truth is not superior to falsehood. In fact, since "morality" consists entirely of arbitrary Divine decree, there is no need to campaign for or against anything whatsoever. There are no "problems" to "solve" because we're lucky to be here at all. And there are no "evils" to rectify because in the absence of G-d objective evil cannot exist (it is actually G-d Who makes objective evil possible, which makes the whole "problem of evil" argument against G-d nonsense).

Log off and go sit in a field now. Eat something. Make some money. You know--eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow you die. But why waste your precious limited time in the only life you'll ever have arguing with other people about it?

If I believed there was no G-d I certainly wouldn't be on an Internet forum trying to convince everyone else of the truth of my position, and I don't understand why any atheist does this.

730 posted on 05/05/2006 7:16:13 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Lo' `aleykha hamela'khah ligmor, 'aval lo' 'attah ben chorin lehibbatel mimennah.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
"Then why do you care whether or not evolution is taught in classrooms?"

Because it's good science and students should know good science.

"Why do you care whether truth or falsehood is taught in schools? Why do you care about anything at all?"

Because I do. I value truth, and I value life.

"If I believed there was no G-d I certainly wouldn't be on an Internet forum trying to convince everyone else of the truth of my position, and I don't understand why any atheist does this."

Evolution isn't atheistic. Nobody is trying to convince anybody here that there is no God. You're delusional. :)
731 posted on 05/05/2006 7:22:43 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Because it's good science and students should know good science.

Only G-d can decide what is and is not a "should."

Because I do.

That's the whole point, isn't it? The universe just exists because it exists! Morality is morality regardless of whether or not there is a G-d! I want to crusade for my cause because I want to crusade for my cause! And some people say Monotheists are tautaulogical!

I value truth, and I value life.

Values are subjective hang-ups with no external, objective existence. Your values and my values mean absolutely nothing. Only G-d's Commandments matter.

Evolution isn't atheistic. Nobody is trying to convince anybody here that there is no God. You're delusional. :)

Then why do you crusade against "Intelligent Design," a form of Theistic evolution that merely teaches that a Creator is a scientific certainty indicated by the evidence? ID doesn't teach that the world was created in six 24 hour days. But your "non-atheistic" philosophy is not content with a non-literal, evolutionary interpretation of Genesis. It has to insist that there is no Creator as well. So if you aren't opposed to Theism but opposed to ID evolutionism, what is your excuse? Oh . . . I know. "Religion" goes into one category and "science" into another, with the latter representing "the real world" and the former representing The Profound Truths Of Man's Flights Of Fancy. You aren't opposed to "gxd" as a philosophical possibility but you are offended by a Factual G-d Who once spoke directly to three million people (and you thought "all the world's great faiths" were the product of lonely eccentrics who thought they heard G-d speaking to them in their minds!).

You self-hating Southerners. Why don't you move somewhere else? Then you won't have to be so ashamed. But then you'd miss out on insulting your "neanderthal" neighbors and relatives, wouldn't you?

732 posted on 05/05/2006 7:51:58 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Lo' `aleykha hamela'khah ligmor, 'aval lo' 'attah ben chorin lehibbatel mimennah.)
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To: Fester Chugabrew
I wrote:
Oh phooey, you do more than just "question" science that conflicts with young-earth creationism.

To which you said:
Perhaps.

There ain't no 'perhaps' about it. It took a little digging but I finally found your post I was thinking about:

I do not accept geology, or radiometric dating, or any part of modern science that might support an old Earth or evolution. -- Fester Chugabrew

My personal opinion is this viewpoint of science holds no merit. Judging from your posts, you have demonstrated little real knowledge of science and so it is also my opinion you are poorly qualified to comment on the topic.

However, It is your right to reject science. I am willing to fight to the death, not figuratively but literally, to preserve your right to believe whatever you want to believe, and to pass on those notions to your children. No one forces what to believe on you or what to teach your children.

Don't most creationists believe that children ought to be taught biblical creation? I'm speaking in a general sense, here. "Force of law in schools" is a red herring anyway. There are many educational options open to parents. There are always options open to parents who don't like the education that their children are receiving.

733 posted on 05/05/2006 7:56:29 AM PDT by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy. Semper Fi.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
"Only G-d can decide what is and is not a "should."

You don't believe you have the ability to rationally choose what is good or bad? How odd. Especially when the quote you are referring to has to do with what should be taught in a science class. Only God can say that? Do you even read what you post?

"That's the whole point, isn't it?"

You asked why care about anything at all, and I said because I do care. I value things because I can, and because I conclude it is rational to do so.

"Then why do you crusade against "Intelligent Design," a form of Theistic evolution that merely teaches that a Creator is a scientific certainty indicated by the evidence?"

Because a Creator isn't a scientific certainty indicated by the evidence. In fact, the existence of a Creator is outside of the scope of science. ID is a purely theological claim, which is fine in itself. Theological claims have no place in a science classroom.

"But your "non-atheistic" philosophy is not content with a non-literal, evolutionary interpretation of Genesis. It has to insist that there is no Creator as well."

That's not true at all. ID makes a claim that can't be tested; it says that an unknown designer did unknown things at an unknown time in an untestable way. It's junk science, and junk theology.

"You self-hating Southerners."

You presumptuous ass.

"Why don't you move somewhere else?"

Why would I be ashamed? I love the South.

"But then you'd miss out on insulting your "neanderthal" neighbors and relatives, wouldn't you?"

You really have no clue. I hope you keep up this part of the conversation. You are digging yourself into a ridiculous hole. :)
734 posted on 05/05/2006 8:07:58 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
You don't believe you have the ability to rationally choose what is good or bad? How odd. Especially when the quote you are referring to has to do with what should be taught in a science class. Only God can say that? Do you even read what you post?

I have the ability to chose good or bad, but I don't have the ability to decide which is which. That depends entirely upon Divine decree.

You asked why care about anything at all, and I said because I do care. I value things because I can, and because I conclude it is rational to do so.

Wow. There's no higher authority than one's self, I suppose.

Because a Creator isn't a scientific certainty indicated by the evidence. In fact, the existence of a Creator is outside of the scope of science. ID is a purely theological claim, which is fine in itself. Theological claims have no place in a science classroom.

Okay . . . so evolution isn't atheistic, but it precludes the existence of a Creator anywhere outside a philosophy class. Ironically, in an earlier post when I said that it wasn't classification that mattered but "what actually happened" you said that this was precisely what "science" does. So what does the "religion" that your evolutionism doesn't oppose do? Anything other than provide a nice cushy job for professional clergy?

That's not true at all. ID makes a claim that can't be tested; it says that an unknown designer did unknown things at an unknown time in an untestable way. It's junk science, and junk theology.

Hmmm. I get the "junk science" dig but not the "junk theology." So according to you theology shouldn't deal with a theoretical Creator who in some sense actually created the world? Then how do you defend your previous claim that "evolution isn't atheistic?" Exactly what sort of "gxd" and "theology" isn't "junk" and exists in harmony with your evolutionism? That's some "gxd" that your philosophy doesn't contradict! (Sounds kinda like the "gxd" and "chr*stianity" of Thomas Jefferson.)

You presumptuous ass.

Now, now . . .

Why would I be ashamed? I love the South.

Hence your choice to initiate this argument with me, a well-known Southerner on this forum, because my beliefs embarrass you. Believe me, I am well acquainted with the phenomenon. And I note that such Southerners never seem to be offended by transubstantiation or the aboriginal dreamtime or the Greek Orthodox "miracle of the holy fire." Those beliefs are accorded full respect. Genesis alone is attacked because Genesis is "the redneck book."

Of course, it is quite possible you love the old ante-bellum pre-fundamentalist South of Thomas Jefferson. Thank G-d the Puritans converted us!

But since (according to science) all our thoughts, ideals, beliefs, and opinions are merely the products of brain biochemistry, I wonder why science condemns people for the way their brain chemistry works. I suppose because the brain chemistry of scientists compels them to do so.

735 posted on 05/05/2006 8:28:41 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Lo' `aleykha hamela'khah ligmor, 'aval lo' 'attah ben chorin lehibbatel mimennah.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
"I have the ability to chose good or bad, but I don't have the ability to decide which is which."

That's a scary admission.

"Wow. There's no higher authority than one's self, I suppose."

There's reality. It's a harsh mistress.

"Okay . . . so evolution isn't atheistic, but it precludes the existence of a Creator anywhere outside a philosophy class."

All science is incapable of making any claims about God. That's theology, and theology doesn't belong in a science class.

"Ironically, in an earlier post when I said that it wasn't classification that mattered but "what actually happened" you said that this was precisely what "science" does."

And that is true. Science deals with what actually happened, and it's methods allow one to have a better understanding of what happened.

"So what does the "religion" that your evolutionism doesn't oppose do? Anything other than provide a nice cushy job for professional clergy?"

It doesn't provide a method to examine the physical world.

"I get the "junk science" dig but not the "junk theology."

It makes God a God of the *gaps* in our knowledge. As those gaps get filled, God disappears.

"So according to you theology shouldn't deal with a theoretical Creator who in some sense actually created the world? "

Not what I said. Theology can do that, but pretending it is also a scientific claim is bad science, and bad theology.

"Then how do you defend your previous claim that "evolution isn't atheistic?" "

It doesn't say there is or isn't a God. The question isn't a scientific one. NO theory in science deals with God.

"Hence your choice to initiate this argument with me, a well-known Southerner on this forum,"

How would I know you are from the South? Am I supposed to be a mind-reader? Believe it or not, I don't follow you around thread to thread to follow all of your posts. On these threads, where did it come up before now?

"because my beliefs embarrass you."

Why should your ignorance embarrass me?

"And I note that such Southerners never seem to be offended by transubstantiation or the aboriginal dreamtime or the Greek Orthodox "miracle of the holy fire." Those beliefs are accorded full respect. Genesis alone is attacked because Genesis is "the redneck book."

Those other beliefs don't conflict with the physical evidence about the history of the Earth and of life. Nobody I know of is trying to push those beliefs onto unsuspecting children in a science class.

"Of course, it is quite possible you love the old ante-bellum pre-fundamentalist South of Thomas Jefferson. Thank G-d the Puritans converted us!"

I love the modern South. I don't want to live anywhere else.

"But since (according to science) all our thoughts, ideals, beliefs, and opinions are merely the products of brain biochemistry, I wonder why science condemns people for the way their brain chemistry works."

Because reality is what it is despite what anybody's inner feelings are. Those who push creationism/ID are pushing the irrational and teaching people that evidence is not needed. The more people who think like that, the scarier the world will become. I live in the world, and my self interest is for as many people as possible to be rational human beings.

That's why I care.

The only self-haters I see here are the people who hate the brains they were born with and refuse to use them to understand the world.
736 posted on 05/05/2006 8:50:01 AM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: HappyFeet
Question -- Did someone declare Christianity the official State Religion without me noticing?

Your answer -- It's not a recent declaration.

When was it declared, and by whom?

737 posted on 05/05/2006 9:01:51 AM PDT by atlaw
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To: Zionist Conspirator
You self-hating Southerners. Why don't you move somewhere else?

Wow. So you're the proverbial "every-southerner". Are you available for consultation in case I need help clarifying my "southernness"?

738 posted on 05/05/2006 9:14:16 AM PDT by atlaw
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To: Liberal Classic
It took a little digging but I finally found your post I was thinking about.

You conveiently truncated my words, and you conveniently ignored subsequent posts wherein my position was toned down. Nevertheless the theory of evolution and its philosophical underpinnings are not entitled to special legal status in public schools. The option of not paying taxes for public schools which by law prohibit discussion of intelligent design in connection with organized matter that pefroms specific functions is not open at this time.

739 posted on 05/05/2006 9:16:23 AM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew
It took a little digging but I finally found your post I was thinking about.

You conveiently truncated my words, and you conveniently ignored subsequent posts wherein my position was toned down. Nevertheless the theory of evolution and its philosophical underpinnings are not entitled to special legal status in public schools. The option of not paying taxes for public schools which by law prohibit discussion of intelligent design in connection with organized matter that pefroms specific functions is not open at this time.

Toned down version:

I will question the veracity of geology, radiometric dating, and any part of modern science that might support an old Earth and will continue to do so until I am convinced these methods are scientifically accurate.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1554785/posts?page=64#64


740 posted on 05/05/2006 9:27:05 AM PDT by Coyoteman (Creationists know Jack Chick about evolution.)
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