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Defending science education against intelligent design: a call to action
American Society for Clinical Investigation ^ | 01 May 2006 | Alan D. Attie, Elliot Sober, Ronald L. Numbers, etc.

Posted on 05/03/2006 8:23:06 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

We review here the current political landscape and our own efforts to address the attempts to undermine science education in Wisconsin. To mount an effective response, expertise in evolutionary biology and in the history of the public controversy is useful but not essential. However, entering the fray requires a minimal tool kit of information. Here, we summarize some of the scientific and legal history of this issue and list a series of actions that scientists can take to help facilitate good science education and an improved atmosphere for the scientific enterprise nationally. Finally, we provide some model legislation that has been introduced in Wisconsin to strengthen the teaching of science.

The past decade has seen breathtaking progress in evolutionary biology, thanks largely to the fruits of genome sequencing projects. The molecular footprints linking all life on the planet are now fleshed out in rich detail, and we possess a chronometer of molecular evolution going all the way back to early bacteria. This has sparked a renaissance of interest in speciation, development, and evolutionary aspects of disease susceptibility and resistance. The importance of evolution to biology was properly summarized by White House Science Adviser John Marburger when he said, "Evolution is the cornerstone of modern biology. Period. What else can you say?" (1).

In a parallel universe, a majority of Americans, 54%, do not believe human beings evolved, according to one poll (2). Only 38% agree with the statement, "human beings evolved from an earlier species" (3). Opposition to evolutionary theory has existed since Darwin. Efforts to eradicate or dilute the teaching of evolution persist throughout the nation despite consistent rejection in the courts. Conservative think tanks, religious fundamentalists, and influential magazines such as National Review continue their attempts to introduce pseudo-science into science classrooms. This movement has gained the support of such prominent politicians as President George W. Bush, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, and Senator John McCain. Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, a onetime biology major, said, "our school systems teach the children they are nothing but glorified apes who have evolutionized out of some primordial soup of mud" (4). Even the definition of science itself has fallen victim to political attack; the state board of education in Kansas decided that the supernatural may now be taught as science in the classroom. Some have claimed that the challenge to evolution is symptomatic of a broader, more generic attack on science itself (5).

Scientists can no longer afford to let these challenges go unopposed. The wide gap between established facts accepted by scientists and the sentiments sampled in the polls reflects a failure of science education. For this, scientists, particularly those in academia, must take some responsibility. The remedies are educational and political and must involve scientists and non-scientists. Instituting an effective response does not require large blocks of time, nor need it involve debates with creationists: small actions can have large effects.

The road to Dover.

In 1968, the US Supreme Court unanimously ruled that an Arkansas law banning the teaching of evolution violated the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution. The Court ruled that the Arkansas law had a religious purpose — namely, to oppose teachings perceived to conflict with the biblical story of creation. Following this defeat, opponents of evolution adopted two strategies. First, they advocated the teaching of creationism as an alternative scientific explanation, along with evolution. Second, they began to adopt scientific jargon to give creationism a veneer of science. Two states, Arkansas and Louisiana, passed laws mandating this "balanced" treatment of evolution and creationism.

This set the stage for the Arkansas trial of 1982 (McLean v. Arkansas Board of Education), which was almost entirely focused on the question "Is creationism science?" Judge William R. Overton stated in his opinion (6) that creationism fails to be a science because it fails to satisfy the following requirements: "(a) it is guided by natural law; (b) it has to be explanatory by reference to natural law; (c) it is testable against the empirical world; (d) its conclusions are tentative, i.e. are not necessarily the final word; and (e) it is falsifiable."

The issue returned to the Supreme Court in 1986–1987. The Court ruled 7–2 in Edwards v. Aguillard that Louisiana’s law calling for the balanced treatment of evolution ("evolution-science" and "creation-science") violated the First Amendment "because it lacks a clear secular purpose" and it "impermissibly endorses religion by advancing the religious belief that a supernatural being created humankind" (7).

The creationists once again mutated and adapted. After the Edwards ruling, they set about removing references to God and creationism from their tracts. For example, as revealed at the Dover trial (8), the authors of the intelligent design (ID) text Of pandas and people: the central question of biological origins stripped the direct mentions of creationism present in early drafts of the text and systematically substituted the novel term "intelligent design" (9).

The evolution of creationism.

ID is the contemporary version of an argument that has a long history. It was given a succinct formulation by William Paley in the early 19th century. Modern defenders of the design argument contend that living things are too complex to have evolved by the process of natural selection; rather, their "irreducible complexity" is convincing evidence of the hand of an intelligent designer. ID theory’s contemporary advocates, who include Lehigh University biochemistry professor Michael Behe, cite complex systems such as the blood-clotting cascade, the flagellar motor, and the human eye to argue that because these systems would be nonfunctional if even a single component part were excised, they could not have evolved by mutation/natural selection and therefore must have been "intelligently designed." The argument can be boiled down to this: complexity is itself evidence of a designer. In its current version, ID conveniently omits mention of God.

However, ID is not a scientific theory. The premise for the arguments of Behe and other ID proponents is deeply flawed, scientifically and philosophically. Behe assumes that the component parts of irreducibly complex systems never had other functions in older organisms. This is contradicted by scientific evidence. The Dover trial transcripts are illuminating (see "The Dover trial") (8). Under oath, Behe was forced to concede that there are organisms that lack some of the mammalian clotting proteins. Proteins that are present in the flagellar motor have orthologs that are involved in unrelated functions. A recent elegant example of proteins acquiring a new function within a complex system can be seen in a structure that functioned in respiration in fish and later evolved to be part of the mammalian inner ear (10).

ID makes no testable predictions. There is nothing in this concept that allows for scientific investigation of the "designer." It is simply an argument by default; the failure to explain something is said to lend credence to a supernatural explanation. The attempt to promote this as science is deeply misguided. In spite of uncounted hundreds of thousands of scientific studies published in the last 50 years, there are still demonstrable gaps in what we know about the evolution of life on this planet. However, those studies tell us a great deal about how life came to be as it is and now form the foundation of modern biology. ID, by contrast, has produced nothing.

The Discovery Institute.

The engine behind the ID movement is the Discovery Institute, founded in 1990 by Bruce K. Chapman. Today, the institute receives more than $4 million per year from numerous foundations, most with religious missions. The center’s objectives are outlined in its "Wedge Strategy," which was leaked and posted on the Internet (11). The document states that the Discovery Institute "seeks nothing less than the overthrow of materialism and its cultural legacies" and "to replace materialistic explanations with theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God." Its goals are to see ID theory as the dominant perspective in science; to see design theory applied in specific fields, including molecular biology, biochemistry, paleontology, physics, and cosmology in the natural sciences and ethics, politics, theology, and philosophy in the humanities; to see its influence in the fine arts; and to see design theory permeate our religious, cultural, moral, and political life.

The Dover decision.

In Dover, Pennsylvania, 2005, 11 parents sued to reverse a school board requirement that the following statement be read to students: "because Darwin’s Theory is a theory, it continues to be tested as new evidence is discovered. The Theory is not a fact. Gaps in the Theory exist for which there is no evidence. A theory is defined as a well-tested explanation that unifies a broad range of observations" (Kitzmiller et al. v. Dover Area School District) (12). The required statement referred only to evolution. The third paragraph in the statement read: "Intelligent design is an explanation of the origin of life that differs from Darwin’s view. The reference book, Of pandas and people (9), is available for students who might be interested in gaining an understanding of what intelligent design actually involves."

In his decision, Judge John E. Jones stated that ID is essentially Paley’s argument for the existence of God, with God left unmentioned. In short, ID is a religious doctrine. He noted that Behe "claims that the plausibility argument for ID depends upon the extent to which one believes in the existence of God"; thus, "ID is a religious and not a scientific proposition." He characterized ID as "nothing less than the progeny of creationism." Jones stated that the Dover school statement forces a "false duality" on students by making them choose between God/ID and atheism/science and "singles out the theory of evolution for special treatment, misrepresents its status in the scientific community, causes students to doubt its validity without scientific justification, presents students with a religious alternative masquerading as a scientific theory, directs them to consult a creationist text as though it were a science resource, and instructs students to forego scientific inquiry in the public school classroom and instead to seek out religious instruction elsewhere."

The Dover case was an important victory for science education. Judge Jones wrote a strongly worded, carefully crafted opinion that should guide future litigation (12). The transcripts of the Dover trial constitute an excellent educational resource, rich in testimony about the nature of science, the evidence for evolution, and the history of deceit in the creationism/ID movement.

The "teach the controversy" hoax.

The ID movement employs a tactic that appeals to the American tradition of "fairness and balance." ID advocates argue that since there is a controversy over evolution, we should "teach the controversy" in public school science classrooms.

The "controversy" is manufactured. Evolutionary biology draws strength from a supporting scientific literature extending across 150 years that includes literally hundreds of thousands of individual papers. Creationists offer no science. In some cases, they have misrepresented science in their efforts to debunk it. For example, in Of pandas and people (9), evolutionary lineages are presented as straight lines linking species, rather than as parts of a tree structure. The incorrect linear model is then used to argue that cytochrome c homology patterns do not conform to evolutionary predictions.

The "just a theory" hoax.

Creationists purposefully confuse the two meanings of the word "theory." In common usage, a theory connotes a statement that is tentative or hypothetical. This is the meaning implied in the frequent claim of ID advocates that evolution is "just a theory." However, science uses the term "theory" differently. When substantiated to the degree that evolutionary theory has been, a theory is regarded as a fact. Practicing biologists operate within the rich context of evolutionary theory, and no part of modern biology, including medicine (13), is completely understandable without it. Scientific arguments are not qualified with clauses that allow for a nonevolutionary scenario.

The "fair and balanced" hoax.

In the name of "fairness and balance," the media have decided to present "two sides" of this story. For example, a day after the Dover decision, National Public Radio aired a commentary by a Heritage Foundation fellow comparing ID to the Big Bang Theory, predicting that eventually it will be widely accepted by scientists (14). By giving uncritical treatment to "both sides," the media convey to the public the false impression that this is a genuine scientific controversy and that each has a substantial body of evidence and convincing argumentation. Journalists should be mindful of the fact that no science supports creationism/ID; 150 years of biological, geological, and physical science supports the modern synthesis of Darwin’s theory. The individuals with scientific credentials who support ideas such as ID actually constitute a rather small group, as recently described in a New York Times article (15).

The "persecuted scientist against the establishment" hoax.

Another plea often articulated by ID proponents is the idea that there is a community of ID scientists undergoing persecution by the science establishment for their revolutionary scientific ideas. A search through PubMed fails to find evidence of their scholarship within the peer-reviewed scientific literature. In the original Wedge document, a key part of the plan to displace evolutionary biology was a program of experimental science and publication of the results. That step has evidently been skipped.

The constant, unanswered assault on evolution is harmful to science and science education. ID and its progeny rely on supernatural explanations of natural phenomena. Yet all of science education and practice rests on the principle that phenomena can be explained only by natural, reproducible, testable forces. Teaching our students otherwise disables the very critical thinking they must have in order to be scientists and is a fundamental distortion of the scientific process. ID is therefore not simply an assault on evolution: it is an assault on science itself.

ID groups have threatened and isolated high school science teachers. Well-organized curricular challenges to local school boards place teachers in the difficult position of arguing against their employers. We have spoken with high school science teachers who feel censored in their efforts to teach the basic principles of science. The legal challenges to local school districts are costly and divert scarce funds away from education into court battles. Although these court battles result in the defeat of ID, they are draining and divisive to local schools.

Finally, the assault on evolution and science threatens our nation’s scientific and technological leadership. Political and economic agendas are interfering with the free flow of scientific information. For example, political appointees have ordered scientists at NASA to eliminate references to the Big Bang Theory and to cease to mention the eventual death of the sun billions of years from now in their comments and publications. Other scientists have been cautioned about speaking out on global warming. These actions disrupt the long-standing tradition of public policy based on the consensus of the scientific community.

[snip]

There is a wide range of actions that each scientist can take to facilitate good science education. Our experience has shown repeatedly that every action carries weight and represents a very productive use of time. Some of these require little time; some require a more substantial commitment.

Educate yourself.

A few hours with publications available on the websites of the National Academy of Sciences, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, or the National Center for Science Education can help clarify the issues and provide the preparation needed for an effective scientific response to challenges (see Table 1). The decision rendered by Judge Jones in the Dover decision is a particularly excellent resource and is well worth reading in its entirety.

Write letters.

Write to legislators and newspapers. Write to school boards considering actions that might undermine science education. Write to government leaders. Respond to comments made by ID proponents wherever they might appear. The letters need not be long, and even one letter every few months will have a large effect. This is an activity that can and should fit into the schedule of every working scientist. Similarly, call in to talk shows featuring pro- or antiscience guests. Every letter written by authors of this paper has elicited a positive response. The ID program consists entirely of public relations efforts. They have had this playing field to themselves for too long.

Organize campus evolution groups.

This provides an informal way to husband campus resources in evolutionary biology. Seminar series are useful. Regular meetings to plan special events such as Darwin Day celebrations can serve as outreach exercises.

Organize educational support teams.

Scientists can be a compelling resource for teachers in K–12 science programs who are facing pressure from school boards or parents to alter good science curricula in ways that harm students. If a group of such scientists can be organized, individuals need not face unreasonable demands on time, and the group as a whole can provide valuable assistance to educators within the scientists’ state.

Participate in outreach activities.

Go to local schools and talk to classes about science in general and evolution in particular. Go to school board meetings when appropriate and talk to school board members. Talk to local business groups.

Organize educational sessions at national and international meetings.

Major scientific professional societies should embark on a concerted educational effort, directed both at educating scientists about the problem and arming them for an effective response. Resources also must be made available for science teachers at the K–12 levels. Travel grants, where available, should be concentrated on K–12 teachers to make attendance possible.

Revise textbooks.

Scientists engaged in textbook writing should be more cognizant of the need to educate future scientists and science teachers about evolutionary biology. Additional education is required to explain what science is, what defines a scientist, and how the various forms of the scientific method constitute a consistent whole.

Become more effective lobbyists for legislation that improves the atmosphere for science and science funding.

We urge scientists in all 50 states to work with their respective legislatures to enact legislation similar to the bill just introduced in the Wisconsin Legislature. This movement should appeal to a widely shared interest to uphold the standards of science education and should transcend political ideology.

Make yourself available at least occasionally as a local resource.

Creationists are not deterred by the Dover case. There are troubling situations brewing in almost every state. Scientists should use these new cases as teaching opportunities in their own classrooms and should be willing to testify and support the cause of science education in the courtroom.

Teach.

For academic scientists, there is no greater responsibility than the education of our citizenry, and there is no activity that has a greater impact. For too long, educational programs in biology at the college level have neglected to provide a solid grounding in evolutionary biology, despite its central importance. This background has been left to unstandardized mentions in core courses and to upper-level specialized courses that are often not required. A nationwide overhaul of these programs is essential. New introductory courses are needed to provide a background in evolutionary biology at the very beginning of all programs leading to science or science education degrees, and the courses should be required. New lower-level courses for nonmajors, pitched at a level appropriate for students with minimal science background, are needed to expose as many citizens as possible to evolutionary theory and to introduce them to science.

Work with your legislators.

Identify legislators who are friends of science and work with them, as we have in Wisconsin, to introduce legislation that supports and strengthens science education.

Work with clergy.

As Judge Jones indicated, the creationists have fostered a false duality between science and religion. A majority of people do not hold a literal young-earth interpretation of the Bible. The clerical community has a shared interest in keeping science and religion apart. They do not want religion to be presented as science and, like a large block of religious scientists, do not see any conflict between religious belief and evolutionary theory.

Whether in crafting a tax code, making health care decisions, evaluating the economy, exploring the resolution of world conflicts, evidence-based thinking is the best intellectual tool in our possession. In science, controversies are usually temporary. When scientists have divergent hypotheses, they usually agree on the key experiments that will favor one hypothesis over others. This is because there is a consensus that framing questions in a way that is subject to the test of evidence is the most progressive way to advance knowledge and understanding. In an ideal world, such principles ought to be widely embraced. Students should learn the difference between hard evidence and speculation. They should understand the elements of logic and clear, critical thinking. They need to understand how to suspend belief while gathering and evaluating evidence.

As George Orwell observed, "a mere training in . . . sciences . . . is no guarantee of a humane or skeptical outlook." Yet Orwell advocated universal science education if such an education was structured to focus on "acquiring a method — a method that can be used on any problem that one meets — and not simply piling up a lot of facts" (18).

Within universities, the cultural gap between the sciences and the humanities needs to be bridged. A useful approach is to create courses in critical thinking that combine science and the humanities. Ideally, such courses would include an exploration of contemporary problems from the combined perspectives of the sciences and the humanities, united in the common theme of evidence-based, critical thinking. Given that our universities play a large role in the training of the next generation of government and corporate leadership, investing in a future better guided by evidence-based, critical thinking is the most important investment we can make.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: crevolist; pavlovian; puppetmasters; scienceeducation; usualsuspects; yomommaisanape
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To: puroresu
My pleasure sir! I must admit I have a shot or two of Southern Pride 151 myself. And I'm doing well, thanks for asking. Just here trying to "enlighten the other side" (read: banging my head against the wall).

You know how THAT goes... ;?)

541 posted on 05/04/2006 11:02:48 AM PDT by LibertarianSchmoe ("...yeah, but, that's different!" - mating call of the North American Ten-Toed Hypocrite)
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To: Coyoteman
You want a new species that has more complexity? How about humans; we have a larger brain that functions better than the brains of our ancestors.

The point of the over 450 scientists that signed the Discovery Institute document is that Macroevolution via RMNS based on the evidence is not a convincing mechanism to create the complexity we see in living organisms.

The 450 will continue to grow to a point where Scientific journals will be forced to publish their perspectives regarding the evidence.

542 posted on 05/04/2006 11:56:44 AM PDT by bondserv (God governs our universe and has seen fit to offer us a pardon. †)
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To: MissAmericanPie
I do know one thing for sure, way back when children were taught that there was a higher authority the worse infractions of the rules was chewing gum and spit wads. And the majority of students actually hung around to graduate.
 

NIV Psalms 33:12-22
 12.  Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people he chose for his inheritance.
 13.  From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind;
 14.  from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth--
 15.  he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do.
 16.  No king is saved by the size of his army; no warrior escapes by his great strength.
 17.  A horse is a vain hope for deliverance; despite all its great strength it cannot save.
 18.  But the eyes of the LORD are on those who fear him, on those whose hope is in his unfailing love,
 19.  to deliver them from death and keep them alive in famine.
 20.  We wait in hope for the LORD; he is our help and our shield.
 21.  In him our hearts rejoice, for we trust in his holy name.
 22.  May your unfailing love rest upon us, O LORD, even as we put our hope in you.
 
 

543 posted on 05/04/2006 12:00:00 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Sloth

...I'll have another beer!


544 posted on 05/04/2006 12:01:03 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
"Good point. Humidity is a killer for wood instruments.

I have a small bedroom where I keep my guitars that has a humidifier constantly running. Where I live we seldom have an excess of humidity so I find I do not need to worry about over humidifying the room. I also have a small heater in the room so the temp never drops too far in the winter and an air conditioner that keeps the temp from going too high in the summer.

Guitars cost too much to take many chances.

545 posted on 05/04/2006 12:05:55 PM PDT by b_sharp
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To: bondserv
"The point of the over 450 scientists that signed the Discovery Institute document is that Macroevolution via RMNS based on the evidence is not a convincing mechanism to create the complexity we see in living organisms."

Actually, the Discovery Institute Document was worded such that I would not disagree with it.

"“We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.” "

Notice that nowhere in this statement does it say that common descent is wrong, or that evolution has not occurred, or that speciation does not happen. The problem with the question is that the ToE does not say that random mutation and natural selection are the ONLY forces that drive evolution. And I know of no scientist who says that the ToE should NOT be carefully examined.

"The 450 will continue to grow to a point where Scientific journals will be forced to publish their perspectives regarding the evidence."

The 500 or people who signed that poorly worded document still amount to far, far less than 1% of all scientists. They'll have to do a lot better than that to force anything.
546 posted on 05/04/2006 12:08:28 PM PDT by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is grandeur in this view of life....")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
The 500 or people who signed that poorly worded document still amount to far, far less than 1% of all scientists.

As Project Steve indicates, over 700 scientists named Steve (or Stephanie, Esteban, or Stefano, etc.), about two-thirds of whom are biologists, have signed on to a statement that says:

Evolution is a vital, well-supported, unifying principle of the biological sciences, and the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that all living things share a common ancestry. Although there are legitimate debates about the patterns and processes of evolution, there is no serious scientific doubt that evolution occurred or that natural selection is a major mechanism in its occurrence. It is scientifically inappropriate and pedagogically irresponsible for creationist pseudoscience, including but not limited to 'intelligent design,' to be introduced into the science curricula of our nation's public schools.
These Steves are only the tip of the scientific iceberg, because the name "Steve" is given to only about 1% of the population. Therefore, the 700 Steves probably represent about 70,000 scientists. See also Project Steve update.

The Steves alone are greater in number than all the scientists (of every name) who have signed statements questioning evolution, and most of the evolution skeptics aren't biologists. For example, the much-publicized list of 500 names collected by the Discovery Institute includes only about 154 biologists, less than one-third of the total. Those 500 signed a rather ambiguous statement, which says:

We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.
In contrast, two-thirds of the 700 Steves are biologists, so the biologist-Steves are about 466 in number. Steves are 1% of the population, so they represent approximately 46,600 biologists. Compare that number to the 154 biologists' names collected by the Discovery Institute. They're the totality of biologists who are evolution skeptics. These competing lists clearly tell us that evolution skeptics are a tiny fringe group -- about one-third of one percent of biologists. Therefore, notwithstanding the unending demands to "teach the controversy," there literally is no scientific controversy about the basic principles of evolution. Scientists, especially those in the biological fields, are all but unanimous in their acceptance of evolution.
547 posted on 05/04/2006 12:12:35 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Unresponsive to trolls, lunatics, fanatics, retards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Oh, so we know the universe could not have been created by G-d because there are no universe factories with "gxds" creating universes on an assembly line.

Well...

According to headquarters in SLC, up near KOLOB is where the factory (ies) is/are located.

548 posted on 05/04/2006 12:13:41 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: bondserv
The 450 will continue to grow to a point where Scientific journals will be forced to publish their perspectives regarding the evidence.

A theory in crisis since 1859. Every year is bound to be its last. Speaking of Theories in Crisis, you seem to have lost Denton. What a shame.

549 posted on 05/04/2006 12:15:27 PM PDT by js1138
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To: bondserv
The 450 will continue to grow to a point where Scientific journals will be forced to publish their perspectives regarding the evidence.

Of course, before there can be any publication, there have to be actual articles to publish, and before there can be any articles to publish, there has to be actual research. These inconvenient precursors seem to be consistently overlooked by the various Creationist/ID self-congratulation-tanks.

550 posted on 05/04/2006 12:17:00 PM PDT by atlaw
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To: HappyFeet
I've been reading the evolution posts over the last month and have come to the unshakable conclusion that Darwinists and the so-called theory of evolution, either don't believe in God, have been brainwashed by the media or have an outright anti christian agenda.

You've betrayed your clearly a priori bias. A conclusion that is actually based on evidence cannot be "unshakable," since it must respond to the evidence. You've simply ignored the many FRevolutionists who are themselves Christians or who are non-hostile to Christianity.

551 posted on 05/04/2006 12:17:30 PM PDT by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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To: PatrickHenry
I'm one of the few people around here who doesn't claim certain knowledge of the One True Waytm to read scripture, thus I don't debate when such experts offer their worthy opinions.

But...

...gimme an old rock and I'll sure tell you how to analyze it correctly®!

552 posted on 05/04/2006 12:17:44 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: MissAmericanPie
I do know one thing for sure, way back when children were taught that there was a higher authority the worse infractions of the rules was chewing gum and spit wads. And the majority of students actually hung around to graduate.

When did this idyllic time exist?

553 posted on 05/04/2006 12:20:25 PM PDT by atlaw
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To: bondserv

>>The point of the over 450 scientists that signed the Discovery Institute document is that Macroevolution via RMNS based on the evidence is not a convincing mechanism to create the complexity we see in living organisms.<<

1. If you hear someone use the term "macroevolution" there is a good chance this person is not a scientist who has kpet up to date.

2. Simply finding problems with current theory does not mean that we throw up our hands and say "well it must be God." It means we keep looking.


554 posted on 05/04/2006 12:27:08 PM PDT by gondramB (He who angers you, in part, controls you. But he may not enjoy what the rest of you does about it.)
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To: bondserv
The point of the over 450 scientists that signed the Discovery Institute document is that Macroevolution via RMNS based on the evidence is not a convincing mechanism to create the complexity we see in living organisms.

Well... Since only a very small minority of evolutionary scientists (if indeed any) actually propose that random mutation plus natural selection are the sole mechanisms involved in evolution as a whole, or speciation/macroevolution specifically, this "dissent" would appear to be as vacuous and useless as ID itself.

555 posted on 05/04/2006 12:28:54 PM PDT by Stultis (I don't worry about the war turning into "Vietnam" in Iraq; I worry about it doing so in Congress.)
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To: MissAmericanPie
>>I hate to point out the number of students who flunk science. So the hysteria over teaching a failed agenda seems to escape me. Maybe ID is the shot in the arm that science needs to keep students interested in all levels of science.<<

So if too many students fail a subject, we should start forcing the teachers to teach other things instead? If they fail math we should perhaps teach bible in math class?

If kids are not learning science we need better science teachers and more support for science departments and (also very important) better math teachers. You cant teach good science without math.
556 posted on 05/04/2006 12:32:11 PM PDT by gondramB (He who angers you, in part, controls you. But he may not enjoy what the rest of you does about it.)
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To: trashcanbred
Intelligent design is not defined by "big proponents." Neither are thiungs unknown or unkowable necessarily supernatural. ID is a simple concept involving the organization of matter for specific functions. It is not an inherently "supernatural" concept. If anything it is most natural, because whatever science has to investigate happens to consist of organized matter that performs specific functions. Hence it is quite possible that intelligent design is behind everything science has to investigate.

Besides, the word "supernatural" is not at all scientific in and of itself. It is an arbitrary concept, subject to change at whim. Once we understand a phenomenon, it suddenly goes from "supernatural" to "natural" but does not change essentially in the least just because we apply a different label. Is that any way to do science? No, but it is a fine way to do philosophy.

557 posted on 05/04/2006 12:47:09 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Stultis

I see no contradiction at all in asserting that truth and objective reality may, and should not only be in accord with one another but be identical, residing outside of each and every observer yet partially accessible to the same.


558 posted on 05/04/2006 1:08:15 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Coyoteman

Sorry, but the "wedge strategy" does not make intelligent design inherently supernatural. If you want to debate the merits of applying the word "supernatural" to this or that phenomenon, you'll have to step outside the realm of hard science and don the hat of philosopher, which hat you wear continually anyway. So have at it.


559 posted on 05/04/2006 1:11:27 PM PDT by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew
Fester! Wow I did not think you would talk to me after that blunder you pulled. Man I was mad at you for that accusation you made but like I said, I forgive you for it cause well... your philosophy line was the most fun yet.

Intelligent design is not defined by "big proponents." Neither are thiungs unknown or unkowable necessarily supernatural.

Au contraire my friend... when I say big proponents I am talking about the founders of the ID theory? Stephen Meyers, Michael Behe, William Dembsky. These guys have been writing articles and have been funded (their Discovery Institute), right? These are your founding fathers of ID theory. Why Meyer takes a lot of credit in the article http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/01/28/do2803.xml

According to most reports, ID is a "faith-based" alternative to evolution based solely on religion. But is this accurate? As one of the architects of the theory, I know it isn't.

Seems he disagrees with you.

ID is a simple concept involving the organization of matter for specific functions. It is not an inherently "supernatural" concept. If anything it is most natural, because whatever science has to investigate happens to consist of organized matter that performs specific functions. Hence it is quite possible that intelligent design is behind everything science has to investigate.

And you accuse me of being philosophical my friend. Can you tell me what other areas of science has promoted an "unknown, unseen intelligence" as the driving force? Pele the volcano God of Hawaii matches that criteria and yet, he is a supernatural being is he not (or is he real?) You tell me.

Once we understand a phenomenon, it suddenly goes from "supernatural" to "natural"

Maybe to a caveman but not to a scientist, that is the problem. When did science ever label anything it could not explain as "supernatural"?

And like I said before, it isn't philosophical to demand evidence for a theory is it? I mean... if you were going to convict someone of a crime, would you not demand evidence or are "unknown, unseen" identities good enough?

560 posted on 05/04/2006 1:13:31 PM PDT by trashcanbred (Anti-social and anti-socialist)
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