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Darwin: Headed for the Ash-Heap
And Rightlyso...Conservative Book Club ^ | 1-20-2006 | Jeffrey Rubin

Posted on 03/14/2006 1:37:33 PM PST by joyspring777

Of the three intellectual pillars of modern liberalism -- Marx, Darwin, and Freud -- only one is still standing. Marx fell in 1989, along with the Berlin Wall. Freud's demise is more difficult to date; suffice it to say that, by the end of the century, no one, with the possible exception of Woody Allen, took him seriously any more. Darwin, I predict, will suffer a similar fate within the next ten to fifteen years.

That may seem counterintuitive in light of recent legal and public-relations setbacks suffered by critics of Darwinism -- notably a federal judge's decision forbidding the teaching of "Intelligent Design" (a term for one aspect of the anti-Darwin critique) in Dover, Pa., public schools. But it is a sign of weakness, not strength, when one side in an ostensibly scientific debate resorts to silencing the other. If the case for Darwin is such a slam-dunk, why not welcome the chance for its opponents to make fools of themselves?

No, Darwinists are running scared. Even their attempts to declare victory on scientific grounds betray more than a whiff of desperation. Case in point: the year-end edition of the journal Science hailing "evolution in action" as its "Breakthrough of the Year." Among the "dramatic discoveries" said by the magazine to make 2005 "a banner year for uncovering the intricacies of how evolution actually proceeds," none in itself demonstrates whether evolution proceeds, and they only shed light on how if you first assume that it does.

Here, for instance, is Science editor Donald Kennedy describing "one of my favorites" in this evidentiary explosion: "the European blackcap, a species of warbler that spends the winter in two separate places but then reunites to breed, with birds selecting mates from those who shared the same wintering ground. Assortative mating of this kind can produce a gradual differentiation of the two populations. Biologists have shown that new species can arise because of geographic barriers that separate subpopulations, but the divergent evolution shown in this case could result in new species arising within a single range."

If it seems that the bare facts adduced here don't quite amount to a clear instance of "evolution in action," that's because they don't. At best, they demonstrate what's known as "microevolution" -- modification within a species -- which no anti-Darwinist disputes. What is disputed is "macroevolution," the change of one species into another, which is the central claim of Darwinism. If macroevolution occurs, the "assortative mating" of the European blackcap might help to explain how it works, but it does nothing to prove that it does occur.

The fact is,nothing proves that macroevolution occurs, or ever has occurred. And, at a certain point, the absence of proof, especially where it ought to be abundant, constitutes, if not positive disproof, at least strong reasons for doubt. According to Darwin's theory of descent through gradual modification (by way of random mutation and natural selection), the fossil record should contain near-infinite numbers of ever-so-slightly-different "transitional" forms, and even greater numbers of evolutionary dead ends. Despite the best efforts of archaeologists, not even a hint of that has materialized in the fossil record. Instead, what we should not expect to find, according to Darwin's theory, is what we do find: the sudden appearance of innumerable distinct species, as we have in the so-called Cambrian Explosion.

Needless to say, a debate like this can't be settled in the space of a column. Neither, however, can it be settled by shutting out the other side. Darwinists, of course, would have us believe that there is no other side, only a bunch of anti-science religious fanatics who don't deserve to be heard. That approach can succeed, but not for long. As I say, I give them fifteen years, tops.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: anotheratheist; christianscience; christiantaliban; creatards; creation; crevolist; darwinism; dreamonmacduff; evolution; headinsand; idiocy; idispseudoscience; ignoranceisbliss; ignoranceisstrength; intellectualdesign; morons; ohplease; pridefullyignorant; pseudoscience; religionisnotscience
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To: fragrant abuse; Coyoteman
What I find absolutely mind-boggling is that IDers, who do not have a SINGLE SHRED of scientific evidence for their assertions, nor have conducted a single experiment or published a single peer-reviewed article, have the gall to criticise supporters of Darwin for their 'lack of evidence'.
The irony would be almost funny if I wasn't utterly sick to the back teeth of it.

I couldn't agree more.

And remember, these are the folks who want to try to "teach" science class...

I do have to correct one minor error in your post, though -- while it's true that the "ID" folks have no positive evidence, no original research, and no research findings in their favor, they have managed to get "a single peer-reviewed article" published in a non-creationist journal (the 2004 Stephen Meyer paper), but that's *one* published paper compared to literally hundreds of thousands (for certain -- perhaps millions) of published journal articles for evolutionary biology.

And the Meyer paper was a) severely flawed, b) just a review anyway, not a report of new findings, and c) published in an obscure journal that doesn't in any way specialize in anything approaching the topic of evolution or ID; normally it covers just taxonomy and other kinds of classification. A good introduction to the flaws in the Meyer paper can be found here, and at the very least the conclusion deserves to be read carefully:

"There is nothing wrong with challenging conventional wisdom — continuing challenge is a core feature of science. But challengers should at least be aware of, read, cite, and specifically rebut the actual data that supports conventional wisdom, not merely construct a rhetorical edifice out of omission of relevant facts, selective quoting, bad analogies, knocking down strawmen, and tendentious interpretations. Unless and until the “intelligent design” movement does this, they are not seriously in the game. They’re not even playing the same sport."
Exactly.
341 posted on 03/15/2006 12:28:43 AM PST by Ichneumon
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"just an early human" placemark


342 posted on 03/15/2006 12:38:30 AM PST by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: Ken H
Hey, I agree with you that Creationists/IDers sometimes are sloppy or lazy or ignorant of the terms they are using. However, you notice I indicated that these debates would go better if the terms were agreed upon by both sides.

Evolutionists like to define faith one way, and not accept any other possible definition.

As for this thread in particular, I haven't read all the jabber back and forth. My main point is that some amount of faith is used to accept the conclusions of tests because the results vary, or the original substance is unknown, or the politics of grant money is on the line, etc.. If you don't see that, then no amount of "naa-naaing" back and forth will change that.

Sincerely
343 posted on 03/15/2006 12:47:23 AM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: jennyp

thanks jenny.

I can see the point.

You would have to define, at some point, when a species became a different species.

"most creationists claim that the apes represent a macro-difference to humans"

then obviously they'd have a hard time justifying a non-macro evolutionary evidence with the fossils.

However, if they're not macro, different species, then no.

So, piling the micros end-to-end, somewhere you cross a macro line.

If you looked for the extreme, avoided the ape-human species question all together, then surely there is a line somewhere, all could agree is a different species - not even an ape for example.

I'd be interested if that kind of linkage is well established in the fossil record in your opinion.

If you, or others, have time, I'd also very much appreciate a response to the article's point about the Cambrian explosion. That has always puzzled me. The upside down tree diagram of species, and the explosion in general.

thanks for your reply..


344 posted on 03/15/2006 1:16:51 AM PST by D-fendr
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To: Ichneumon

Thanks for the correction. Will take a look at the link with interest.


345 posted on 03/15/2006 1:19:58 AM PST by fragrant abuse
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To: Leatherneck_MT

I'm gonna agree and disagree with your post.

We shouldnt cut off the debate.

However a large part of the debate involves science and religion.

When the religionists deduce science, they're in error. And when the scientists infer religion, they're in error.

Seeing the difference between the two errors, and avoiding them would greatly help.

And that should be part of the debate.


346 posted on 03/15/2006 1:31:07 AM PST by D-fendr
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To: joyspring777

Wishful thinking from the creationist nitwits.


347 posted on 03/15/2006 1:33:44 AM PST by Junior_G
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To: Just mythoughts; freedumb2003
... My objection to evolution is the FACT that it is government funded and government required teaching to a young captive audience.

As are English, algebra, history, chemistry,....

Should we stop teaching history because a political pressure group prefers Afrocentric fantasies?

Should we stop teaching English grammar because some students are from Ebonic speaking families?

Should Christian Scientist children be excused from biology class because the lesson of the day is the germ theory of disease?

348 posted on 03/15/2006 1:44:38 AM PST by Virginia-American
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To: Ichneumon
"why did you cut it off the way you did? Do you feel that was an honest alteration of the sentence? "

Yes, It was an honest posting/alteration of the sentence. I don't remember the whole sentence, or the exact reason, I shortened it, but that is why I gave you the title and author, if you wanted to check on it. This discussion occured about a year ago, and I don't have with me all the notes that I took on the book.

This person, whom I still disagree with, did teach me a few things. (One is to make sure you are defining the same word the same.) He recommended that I read that book by Pigliucci to get a better understanding of evolution. I did an honest reading and took honest notes. The stuff I cut and pasted was part of a summary that I sent him.

"Again, it sounds as if you and your correspondent were talking about two different senses of the word "faith".

Thats what I was saying. However, he, you, and some others throw out that "NO faith is required for evolution," and that isn't all true. Our dissagreement is on how and where and how much faith is being used, or how faith is defined......a perfect illustration of what I was saying.

"Observing that something is not immune from ideology is not the same as saying that it is based on "faith"."

If you think that I believe that all of evolution is based on faith, that would be wrong. From your online dictionary, here is the first two definitions of ideology....

1. The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, group, class, or culture.
2. A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.


Doctrines or beliefs are not observed experiments. They are peoples conclusions. example....You tell me water freezes at 32 Degrees F. I can observe that. But, if you tell me that 100 million years ago, a bird turned into a lizard, that I can't observe.....therefore it takes faith. Not the same level as faith that God is real, but faith none the less.

"Fine, since it doesn't, this is not an example of scientific "faith" either. "

This is your hair splitting based on your definition...fine. I don't accept the route your taking, but so what.

"Page 203 does not argue that primitive organisms are beyond examination, nor that it takes "faith" to draw conclusions about them. All it says is that no *modern* organism is a perfect representative of "our earliest ancestors". And you're "forgetting" to mention that in later pages the author goes on to describe *other* ways of acquiring evidence about the nature of primitive organisms... "

Again, your definition of faith...fine. But it doesn't have to say "faith." If there are no modern representations, then you can't observe them, therefore it is faith. The "evidence" may point to the conclusion the author likes, but if you can't reproduce it to observe it, it is.....faith.

"That doesn't support the claim that evolutionary biology is based on "faith"... The same goes for the rest of your attempted examples."

That was in response to the fact that Pigliucci himself, noted that some scientific conclusions are subjective. If it is subjective, that would mean that it isn't completely reproduceable to be observed, if it can't be observed it is....faith. This is your online dictionary definition of subjective...

Proceeding from or taking place in a person's mind rather than the external world

This is from a post #158...

"Fact: when an observation is confirmed repeatedly and by many independent and competent observers, it can become a fact.

This is what you posted...

"And again, no, this is not about "things that cannot be observed". You're misunderstanding what it means to make a scientific observation."

This is what your online definition of science is...

"The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.

Science is about observation. Observation is directly related to calling something a fact. Therefore, evolutionary theory of origins is not based on facts, if you can't observe them.

"Speak for yourself."

I wouldn't want to speak for anyone else. The point is that many evolutionists don't recognize other scientists if they don't subscribe to the evolutionist doctrine. My point is that this theory of belief is not necessary to be a good scientist or do good scientific work.

"In other words, you're making claims which are quite incorrect, and which don't even follow from the material you provided."

Claims that you believe to be incorrect, and claims that you don't see how it is supported by the material provided. In other words.....We disagree. Fine.

Have a nice day.
349 posted on 03/15/2006 1:55:30 AM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: spintreebob

But it does require people to have a reverence for science.

Is that just your opinion or can you back it up? I don't think you can substantiate this statement.

Science is a methodology. As such all it can 'require' of people is that they adhere to the methodology if they want to call their theories scientific.

I think the rest is a product of your imagination because you don't like some things scientists say.

BTW, I don't even consider the so-called social science to be sciences. They've hijacked the term. They have overstepped and overreached and have contributed to giving science a bad name in some people minds.

350 posted on 03/15/2006 2:57:55 AM PST by ml1954
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Trojan Horse placemarker


351 posted on 03/15/2006 4:01:40 AM PST by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: Ichneumon
Galileo's blasphemous, satanic solar system theory is headed for the same ash-heap as Darwin's evil work. One day you will learn the truth, but it will be too late. Hahahahahahahahah!
</creationism mode>
352 posted on 03/15/2006 4:02:33 AM PST by PatrickHenry (Virtual Ignore for trolls, lunatics, dotards, scolds, & incurable ignoramuses.)
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To: Ichneumon

Massive posts doesn't make you right. I can throw pages of dogma at you as well. Doesn't make me right.

If you people are so convinced you are right. Why stifle one side of the debate?

Easy answer

You're ignorant about the facts of your case and you know that you don't have a leg to stand on.

See? I can be insulting to you too.


353 posted on 03/15/2006 5:23:40 AM PST by Leatherneck_MT (An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens.)
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To: Leatherneck_MT
Massive posts doesn't make you right. I can throw pages of dogma at you as well. Doesn't make me right.

What makes your views irrelevant is that you have nothing of substance to argue against the massive posts.

What you fail to address is that Ichneumon's "massive" posts are just brief digests of what is available. There are millions of pages of research supporting evolution. What you see here isn't even the tip of the iceberg.

354 posted on 03/15/2006 5:27:37 AM PST by js1138
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To: Ichneumon

The only one being belligerent are the one's calling names like 5 year olds on a playground.

You have tried to silence debate each and everytime the topic comes up, so don't sit there and lie and say your side doesn't. They do, ALL of the time. The case in the Federal Court proves that.

If you are so convinced of your intellectual superiority, then let ID be taught in school as an alternative to evolution. As a theory (which is what evolution is by the way, it's not fact).

Until then you are being disingenuous to sit there and say your side does not try to stifle the other side in the debate.


355 posted on 03/15/2006 5:27:49 AM PST by Leatherneck_MT (An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens.)
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To: D-fendr

Agreed


356 posted on 03/15/2006 5:29:48 AM PST by Leatherneck_MT (An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens.)
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To: js1138

So again the question.

If you are so convinced of the correctness of your position.

Why cut off one side of the debate?

Don't try to hit me with your alleged intellectual superiority, I'm not some spring chicken. Answer the question.


357 posted on 03/15/2006 5:31:52 AM PST by Leatherneck_MT (An honest man can feel no pleasure in the exercise of power over his fellow citizens.)
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To: Virginia-American
"As are English, algebra, history, chemistry,....

Should we stop teaching history because a political pressure group prefers Afrocentric fantasies?

Should we stop teaching English grammar because some students are from Ebonic speaking families?

Should Christian Scientist children be excused from biology class because the lesson of the day is the germ theory of disease?"


How long has it been since you spent a day in a classroom of any public school?

These public schools are exhibit A for darwinist theory in all of the subjects you listed above. TOE is not confined to the biology classroom, the TOE is applied throughout. That scientific method is applied top down and the student population are categorized from the fittest to the least fit. Funding is based upon the percentage of each classification. Marx would be so proud.
358 posted on 03/15/2006 5:35:18 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: joyspring777

Relax, You'll evolve.


359 posted on 03/15/2006 5:53:57 AM PST by dblshot
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To: joyspring777
God made Darwin too smart by half.

But God don't make no junk.

360 posted on 03/15/2006 5:59:58 AM PST by Miss Behave (Beloved daughter of Miss Creant, super sister of danged Miss Ology, and proud mother of Miss Hap.)
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