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A Good Neanderthal Was Hard to Find
NY Times:Week in Review ^ | February 26, 2006 | JOHN NOBLE WILFORD

Posted on 02/26/2006 3:25:01 AM PST by Pharmboy

Maybe they just didn't have time to get to know each other.

The question of what Neanderthals and Homo sapiens might have done on cold nights in their caves, if they happened to get together and the fire burned down to embers, has intrigued scientists since the 19th century, when the existence of Neanderthals was discovered.

A correction in the way prehistoric time is measured using radiocarbon dating, described last week in the journal Nature, doesn't answer the enduring question, but it might at least help explain why no DNA evidence of interbreeding has been found: the two species spent less time together than was previously believed.

The old radiocarbon calculation is now known to be off by as much as several thousand years, the new research shows. That means that modern Homo sapiens barged into Europe 46,000 years ago, 3,000 years earlier than once estimated. But the radiocarbon dating under the new calculation also shows that their takeover of the continent was more rapid, their coexistence with the native Neanderthals much briefer.

snip...

Was that advantage cognitive, technological or demographic? Their personal ornaments and cave art, now seen to have emerged much earlier, are strong evidence for an emergence of complex symbolic behavior among the modern newcomers, a marked advance in their intelligence.

That doesn't mean they didn't interbreed with the Neanderthals.

snip...

"Since these two species may have been able to interbreed, as many closely related mammal species can," Dr. Harvati said, "a restricted coexistence interval may be easier to reconcile with the observed lack of Neanderthal genetic contribution to the modern human gene pool and with the paucity of convincing fossil evidence for hybridization."

The caves, it would seem, still hold their secrets.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: crevolist; europe; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; humanevolution; milfordwolpoff; neandertal; neandertals; neanderthal; neanderthals
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To: SkyPilot

"And then we can announce to everyone our vaunted "findings" and if someone questions them, here comes the attack."


No surprise, is it? You have dared question "science"!


181 posted on 02/27/2006 2:43:20 AM PST by mlc9852
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To: AntiGuv

"The Neanderthal had inferior tools, inferior weapons, inferior artistry, etc."

That could be said for many people today I suppose. Does that make them sub-species? If so, a sub-species of what?


182 posted on 02/27/2006 2:48:06 AM PST by mlc9852
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To: mlc9852

I don't mind debating this yet further, but please see my post #175 first then follow up with that context.


183 posted on 02/27/2006 2:53:35 AM PST by AntiGuv
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To: AntiGuv
I have given up debating evos. There is no debate. You all are absolutely right, even when the next article posted will probably say you were wrong. You will argue your position by calling those who disagree ignorant bible-thumpers, etc., so I no longer bother playing the game. I am now just a bemused observer.
184 posted on 02/27/2006 2:56:01 AM PST by mlc9852
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To: Drammach

So Eve was really not Eve?


185 posted on 02/27/2006 2:59:27 AM PST by mlc9852
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To: AntiGuv

http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Abstracts/Wilford_98.html

I have read that Neanderthals had speech. Did they or not?


186 posted on 02/27/2006 3:01:21 AM PST by mlc9852
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To: mlc9852
I have given up debating evos.

That is a perfectly legitimate decision on your part, so far as I'm concerned, but until that changes, please avoid pinging me. It is really for your own good. When you do ping me, there is no doubt that I will respond to you, and then you simply will look ridiculous and foolish when you reply that you won't debate me immediately after you just did.

187 posted on 02/27/2006 3:01:48 AM PST by AntiGuv
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To: SunkenCiv

No no no...this was more human evo rathen than GGG. But now I know and it shan't happen again. ( :-D


188 posted on 02/27/2006 3:02:08 AM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: mlc9852

Have you decided that you're now debating me? Yes or no?


189 posted on 02/27/2006 3:02:32 AM PST by AntiGuv
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To: AntiGuv

Not debating - just pointing out that others have different opinions. I'll keep my opinions to myself because I am not nearly as intelligent as you.


190 posted on 02/27/2006 3:03:58 AM PST by mlc9852
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To: mlc9852

I see. Well then, I'm not debating you either, just pointing out that your link dates to 1998 and the crucial role of FOXP2 in human speech and language was not discovered until 2001.


191 posted on 02/27/2006 3:08:12 AM PST by AntiGuv
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To: mlc9852

PS. And, if I might be so bold to say, it's hardly an issue of intelligence here; it's an issue of education. There is nothing I've posted on this topic that I think you would have the slightest problem grasping if you read into the latest scientific research with an open mind.


192 posted on 02/27/2006 3:11:27 AM PST by AntiGuv
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To: Pharmboy; Gabz; SeaDragon; Xenalyte
More informative, in his prejudices, is the fact that he chose to use a picture of an ugly Neanderthal MAN and a "classically" pretty Cro-Magnon woman.

Then again, perhaps he (his editor) thinks that ALL MEN are (still) ugly Neanderthals.

(Heck, for what's it's worth, I wouldn't breed with an ugly Neanderthal man either .....)
193 posted on 02/27/2006 3:12:57 AM PST by Robert A Cook PE (I can only donate monthly, but Hillary's ABBCNNBCBS continue to lie every day!)
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To: AntiGuv

http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/sci_tech/highlights/010710_neanderthal.shtml

From 2001

Aside from archaeology, another line of evidence for speech would be genetics. The announcement in August 2002 of the unique form of the FOXP2 gene in modern humans was seen as a possible line of evidence for the lack of language in human ancestors. The FOXP2 gene seems to be vital in allowing human to speech to develop much more clearly, as mutations cause problems with movements of the lips and tongue as well as selection of the correct word tense.

The human version of the gene does not seem to appear until 200,000 years ago, after the neanderthals split from the ancestors of modern humans. This suggests neanderthals may have lacked a fine-tuned speech ability. However, there is unlikely to be a single 'language gene'. Language relies on an incredibly fine-tuned interaction between brain and throat, and is likely to be dependent on several genes. Further studies may show neanderthals used different genes to perform a similar function. The debate continues.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2003/learnthinkqa.shtml

"The debate continues" hmmmmm


194 posted on 02/27/2006 3:18:47 AM PST by mlc9852
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To: mlc9852

Yes, of course the debate continues, but there are two relevant points here:

In modern humans quite clearly the gene that regulates speech and language is our unique FOXP2 gene.

Even if Neanderthals did have a language capability, then it would be based on "different genes to perform a similar function".

The topic of debate here is how closely related the Neanderthals were to the Cro-Magnons as a species, or sub-species.

Therefore, regardless whether the Neanderthals had their own unique genes to enable speech, their genes that performed the function would be different from that of Cro-Magnons.

And so, that would be yet another in the lengthy list of items above that clearly point to Neanderthals as being fully distinct species.


195 posted on 02/27/2006 3:23:44 AM PST by AntiGuv
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To: AntiGuv
Cro-Magnons were the first to produce arrowlike projectiles tipped with ivory and amber, while Neanderthal weapons were only wooden spears sometimes tipped with stone points.

In any contest where one side has long-range weapons (arrows, atlatls, slings) and the other side doesn't, the side that has only short-range weapons is in deep trouble

196 posted on 02/27/2006 3:27:53 AM PST by SauronOfMordor (A planned society is most appealing to those with the hubris to think they will be the planners)
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To: phantomworker

I don not think blonds are going to be extinct in 200 years. It will take much more time. It is too many blonds in Scandinavia. I am from Norway so I know. Another fact is that in the future people can choose the appearance of their offspring due genetic science. Parents can get Nordic looking children from blond donors. It was just an article about it in a newspaper in Norway. It was from New York and that it was an increasing demand for Nordic donors


197 posted on 02/27/2006 3:28:57 AM PST by tomjohn77
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To: mlc9852

And note also that even if you hypothesize "different genes to perform a similar function" of speech in Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons, there are no known modern humans that evidence this alleged Neanderthal alternative to the unique human FOXP2 gene. So, that would be yet another sign that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons did not intermix, because if they did then you would plausibly expect to find some descendents with this hypothetical Neanderthal speech-enabling alternative.


198 posted on 02/27/2006 3:29:49 AM PST by AntiGuv
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To: Robert A. Cook, PE
Then again, perhaps he (his editor) thinks that ALL MEN are (still) ugly Neanderthals.

For the Times, that is probably the right answer...

199 posted on 02/27/2006 3:51:12 AM PST by Pharmboy (The stone age didn't end because they ran out of stones.)
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To: AntiGuv

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:J_SUa7DC0akJ:www-personal.umich.edu/~wolpoff/Papers/Why%2520not%2520the%2520Neanderthals.pdf+FOXP2+GENE+BLACKS&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=8

I haven't had time to read the entire article, just skimmed over it because I need to get to work. But it appears quite interesting - would like your comments.

Have a good day.


200 posted on 02/27/2006 4:04:20 AM PST by mlc9852
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