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BBC History Team Solves Riddle Of Llywelyn
The Telegraph (UK) ^ | 1-31-2006 | Ben Fenton

Posted on 02/05/2006 3:21:23 PM PST by blam

BBC history team solves riddle of Llywelyn

By Ben Fenton
(Filed: 31/01/2006)

One of the last great mysteries of the history of the independent Welsh nation was apparently solved yesterday by a group of English historians working for the BBC.

For centuries, people living in and around the chicken farm called Pen y Bryn on top of a hill overlooking the Menai Straits in Caernarvonshire have been convinced that it is a royal place.

More than that, they all firmly believed that the 36-acre farm was the last remnant of the palace of Llywelyn, the first and last prince of a "free" Wales, who died in 1282.

But Cadw, the Welsh equivalent of English Heritage, says it has found traces of a medieval house about 400 yards away, near to a Norman motte, or defensive mound, that is the real site of the palace.

Today, even the current prince has become intrigued in developments after Kathryn Gibson, the owner of Pen y Bryn, tried to convince him to accept that he is the 22nd, not the 21st Prince of Wales.

"We had all the local tradition that this was the palace site, but what we were lacking was the last documentary proof that this was the case," Mrs Gibson said yesterday after the broadcast of the programme on BBC2's History Mysteries series. "But thanks to Nick Barratt and his colleagues, we now have that."

Mr Barratt, who is The Daily Telegraph's "Family Detective" found the crucial evidence in archives at Bangor, a few miles from the site. A document dating to 1284 stated clearly that there was a "Ty Hir" or long house, at the centre of the manor of Aber, previously known as Aber Garth Celyn.

It was from there that Llywelyn was known to have written his last letter of defiance to the English. But the site near the motte was not a long house, but an H-shaped dwelling which the historians believe was an administrative centre for the infant Welsh court, but not the prince's home.

Investigations showed that the chicken farm, which has a tower attached to it tentatively, is built on the ruins of a long house. On another document, dating from the 1730s, the manor house at the centre of the lands of Aber is clearly identified as Pen y Bryn.

Mr Barratt said: "It shows that Llywelyn had two separate buildings, one domestic, one business, and that the Welsh court was much more sophisticated than English historians have portrayed it to be."

Mrs Gibson is hoping that the programme will be seeen by Prince Charles, whom she met a few years ago. "I told him that he ought to acknowledge that Edward I's son was not the first Prince of Wales and that he is the 22nd, not the 21st person to hold that title."


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bbc; chickenfarm; godsgravesglyphs; history; llywelyn; riddle; sloves; team; wales
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1 posted on 02/05/2006 3:21:27 PM PST by blam
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To: SunkenCiv

GGG Ping.


2 posted on 02/05/2006 3:22:01 PM PST by blam
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To: blam
BBC history team solves riddle of Llywelyn

Some linguist figured out how to pronounce it?

3 posted on 02/05/2006 3:23:09 PM PST by Gordongekko909 (I know. Let's cut his WHOLE BODY off.)
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To: blam

Boy, I'm glad that's been settled. It's been worrying me these last 800 years.


4 posted on 02/05/2006 3:33:08 PM PST by T'wit (As they say: If you like the law, sausage or Bill Clinton, don't watch them being made.)
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To: blam

Investigations showed that the chicken farm, which has a tower attached to it tentatively

Tentatively?


5 posted on 02/05/2006 3:46:02 PM PST by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: tet68
"Tentatively?"

It's about to fall down?

6 posted on 02/05/2006 3:52:59 PM PST by blam
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To: Gordongekko909
" Some linguist figured out how to pronounce it?"

roughly, "Lew-ellen"

7 posted on 02/05/2006 4:00:37 PM PST by Mark Felton ("Your faith should not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.")
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To: Mark Felton

All that, and they didn't provide a picture or a map.


8 posted on 02/05/2006 4:18:06 PM PST by passionfruit ("...I think the left wing is turning into a cult... If you disagree you're a traitor")
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To: Mark Felton

You can't figure out the Welsh, I have Welsh roots (G,GR Father was from "AMLCH" , Northern Wales. Try doing some genealogy research in Wales..


9 posted on 02/05/2006 4:25:39 PM PST by ThomasPaine2000 (Peace without freedom is tyranny.)
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To: Myrddin

LLYWELYN Ping!


10 posted on 02/05/2006 4:58:37 PM PST by Domestic Church (AMDG...)
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To: Domestic Church
Pen y Bryn aka "end of the hill". Good to see the historians at work finding physical evidence to support their writing. Diolch yn fawr!
11 posted on 02/05/2006 5:08:01 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; StayAt HomeMother; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; asp1; ...
Thanks Blam.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
Gods, Graves, Glyphs PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

12 posted on 02/05/2006 5:50:19 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Islam is medieval fascism, and the Koran is a medieval Mein Kampf.)
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To: blam; FairOpinion; Ernest_at_the_Beach; StayAt HomeMother; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; asp1; ...
Thanks Blam.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
Gods, Graves, Glyphs PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

13 posted on 02/05/2006 5:50:43 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Islam is medieval fascism, and the Koran is a medieval Mein Kampf.)
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Huh. Wonder what happened there? I only clicked it once...


14 posted on 02/05/2006 5:53:06 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Islam is medieval fascism, and the Koran is a medieval Mein Kampf.)
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To: blam

"I told him that he ought to acknowledge that Edward I's son was not the first Prince of Wales and that he is the 22nd, not the 21st person to hold that title."


I have a visual of Nelson, from the Simpsons, pointing at PRince Charles, going, "Ha-Ha!!"


15 posted on 02/05/2006 6:05:47 PM PST by Renfield (If Gene Tracy was the entertainment at your senior prom, YOU might be a redneck...)
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To: Gordongekko909
I think it is lou-ell'in.

I recognize it from Cadfael, the series about a Benedictine monk who solves murders in, what, 12th-century England?

16 posted on 02/05/2006 6:08:08 PM PST by TheGeezer
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To: Mark Felton
roughly, "Lew-ellen"

You forgot the throat-clearing at the start of the word.


17 posted on 02/05/2006 7:56:11 PM PST by T. P. Pole
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To: TheGeezer

That was a great series.


18 posted on 02/05/2006 8:29:56 PM PST by SuzyQue
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To: Gordongekko909

like thlew-ellen with the first syllable like you are spitting.


19 posted on 02/05/2006 9:03:15 PM PST by Dave Elias
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To: blam

Interesting find.


20 posted on 02/05/2006 9:57:16 PM PST by Dustbunny (The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist.)
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