Posted on 01/27/2006 7:24:10 AM PST by RS
"U.S. agents had been investigating the possibility of an elaborate drug-smuggling tunnel between Tijuana and San Diego for more than a year, but couldn't find it despite using military equipment so advanced it's classified"
~snip
"“This tunnel beats them all,” said Michael Unzueta, special agent in charge of the San Diego office of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, "
~snip
"“People are always going to find a way around us,” he said."
(Excerpt) Read more at signonsandiego.com ...
To be effective, a barrier does not have to be perfect. It just needs to make the job of breaching it be more trouble than getting on the other side is worth
In the TV series, Hogan was essentially in charge of a "Special Forces"-type operation, doing sabotage and intelligence activities and using the camp as cover
If the people of Mexico, and points south, among others, have merely to cross our border to support their families at home, and it is literally a walk in deal, then they have no incentive to hold their own government acccountable for its failed policies, and no reason to change it.
The driving force behind their emmigration will not change unless they are there to change it.
If American 'Colonials' only had to boogey off to Canada to get a significantly better life, they might never have changed things here.
"If Americans completely quit employing illegals tomorrow, then what? Will everyone here illegally just pack up their old kit bag and go home? Or will they turn to the 'underground economy' to make a living, dealing drugs or engaging in other, more violent behaviour? "
So if you became unemployed, you would start dealing drugs or robbing people rather then go home ?
Obviously, hand in hand with this is deporting ALL illegals - no excuses, no " I've got kids here", no "Just let me get my hat"
I don't think your " we have to let them have jobs here or they will turn to crime" idea holds water, all that leads to is a "home free" attitude, where once they get in they are assured of a living -- creating a further incentive to cross the border.
"To be effective, a barrier does not have to be perfect. It just needs to make the job of breaching it be more trouble than getting on the other side is worth"
Correct, a dusty road is an effective barrier when there is no possibility of any reward on the other side.
"Why do you object to stopping the problem at the source, rather than chasing these people helter-skelter all over the country?"
I am all in favor of it - the source is the incentive for them to come ... the reward we dangle out in front of them to give them the reason. Like training a dog, we are holding out the cookie, and making them jump higher or faster in order to get it.
It is simple. Stop the flow. Round them up, Send them home, once and for all. Penalize the ones who made it lucrative for them to be here.
You seem to think that stopping jobs will be enough.
I have been unemployed, and but for the graces of friends, homeless. I did not turn to crime or welfare.
Not everyone will.
I don't think your " we have to let them have jobs here or they will turn to crime" idea holds water,...
Just who in the Hell are you quoting?
NOT ME.
I said do not even let them in. What part of that are you having trouble with?
Now, until you answer some of my questions, like, "What's in it for you to have the border easier to cross than the average vacant lot?" I have nothing further to say to you.
Well, I suppose if we were a Socialistic, poverty stricken nation of peons, that would do it?
/sarc
Otherwise, the d@mned cookie will always be here.
""What's in it for you to have the border easier to cross than the average vacant lot?" I have nothing further to say to you."
How about something simple like not have the government that I support with my work tossing it away on a "solution" that is guaranteed not to work, while allowing American lawbreakers to continue to make money by causing the problem, and soaking up even more of my work ( tax money ) to provide medical care, educational and all the other benefits that should come from being a LAWFULL resident here.
Simple enough ?
"Well, I suppose if we were a Socialistic, poverty stricken nation of peons, that would do it?"
So you would run from that to a place where you could NOT get a job, NOT get an education, NOT expect free medical care instead of just maybe, since you have the incentive to make your life better and the drive to work for it, stay home and MAKE your life better ?
My friend, there are thousands of your poverty stricken peons who drag their wares out to their spot on the sidewalk every day in Tijuana, trying to make an honest living off the tourist trade. They are NOT jumping the fence.
Our latest response is to require that all Americans who cross the border carry their passport - which will effectively stop the majority of day tourists.
So there goes their jobs in Mexico, and that cookie we dangle on the other side of the fence looks even better to them.
Well, our resentments are in agreement.
So how about trying something we have not?
There are laws in place to prosecute the employers of illegals.
There are the legal means of removing illegals.
A couple of lines of legal code could eliminate the anchor babies and benefits, as long as you can keep the judges from negating it.
That has been tried, even to the point of referendum. (prop 187-- and the judges did it in.)
Efforts to keep the problem in check from the inside have been thwarted by judicial activism, special interests, and ordinary corruption.
Those who have pursued the legal venue have met with limited success.
What we do not have, though, and have not had, for much of the border is anything, anything to serve as a barrier to even make it more difficult to enter the country than a good day on a hiking trail.
Limited coverage will just shift the problem to a different part of the border, they will follow the path of least resistance. So let's resist for the length of the border.
If they cannot get in, the judges cannot hand them freebies we pay for, but often can't afford to buy for ourselves.
No amount of 'judicial activism' will benefit anyone not here.
No number of good old boy greased palms will allow someone to employ someone who is still on the other side of the fence, at least not without paperwork, but then, that would make them legal.
You've got it just about right - Prop 187 shows the solution that the people of this country want. Without getting rid of the judges or overruling them ( let's see how Bush's appointments handles these ), the problem will exist. The judges and the employers WANT that cookie to remain.
It appears you have come to accept that this country does not belong to US anymore, and a fence is the best you can beg them for. Lets see if the judges and employers let you have it.
BTW - we don't need lines of code about anchor babies - illegal is illegal, no exception - take the citizen kid with you if you want. ( lets see just how Mexico handles these non-Mexican citizen kids )
You must have missed the sarcasm tag. Next time I will use a larger font.
My implication with the sarcastic comment "Well, I suppose if we were a Socialistic, poverty stricken nation of peons, that would do it?" was that this was one way to eliminate that lovely "cookie" we are dangling, by becoming just another economic cesspit. Of course, I was not advocating this, I was being sarcastic
This is AMERICA, The Land of Milk and Honey, land of opportunity, of conspicuous wealth, where (nearly) every family has a TV set, a car, etc.
If you come from a poor enough place, you could live better here picking through the trash here than you could at 'home'.
I have even known Americans who made a modest living 'dumpster diving'--in one instance, furnishing a home (albeit in eclectic style), complete with functioning appliances.
Get away from the border towns across the border, where there is opportunity for the talented and motivated to at least cater to the tourist business, and what have you?
Here there is hope, even if you are not intent on living on the dole. Here there is huge wealth, such that even a crumb is better than what you are walking away from.
Here there is opportunity, and failing that, a plane ticket home.
I live here, my ancestors arrived before there was a United States. The alternative was to stay and risk the headsman's sword. (Note: the sword, and not the axe).
They carved their living out of the wilderness, cut deals with the indigenous residents to purchase the land they occupied, despite the crown grant. They risked everything, including their lives, not for a TV set and welfare, but rather a place to worship God as they saw fit.
There is always a way here to make it here, especially now,-- to make a living, whether it is doing spot jobs for cash, starting a business, as an artist or artisan, laborer, or whatever.
As long as you are willing to work, there is opportunity enough.
You will never be able to shut that down without shutting down the entire country. When the alternatives are to hire who is available and willing to work or watch your crop rot in the field, you hire whoever will work.
The people who come here are doing something about their situation, they are coming to the land of milk and honey. Some of them are living on the dole, sucking up the bennies and our tax money. Others are out there hustling for a buck.
We are not going to change the situation they left by making ourselves poorer.
Our latest response is to require that all Americans who cross the border carry their passport - which will effectively stop the majority of day tourists.
So there goes their jobs in Mexico, and that cookie we dangle on the other side of the fence looks even better to them.The first part is aimed at restricting the flow of illegals.
The second part, that cookie, is not going away unless we all live in abject poverty, too.
Needless to say, I am not advocating abject poverty.
But when even the crumbs look like a seven course meal and all you have to do is wade across to get to it, some people are going to. If it is more difficult, that adds to the reaasons to stay home and try to make something better, even if that is to provide enough incentive for Americans to get their passports to come to you.
Using the argument that the passport requirement will destroy their tourism does not cut it, simply because Americans carry their passports to myriad other places more expensive to visit.
It also increases the incentive to fill out the paperwork, to educate yourself, to learn English, and come here legally--to become an American.
One of the best, most unambiguous, and time honored methods of delineating your property is to put up a fence.
There are no expedient legal methods to remove these judges in areas which have been heavily seeded with illegal aliens and their sympathizers already, it will be faster and more effective to build the fence.
"Here there is opportunity, and failing that, a plane ticket home."
No opportunity, No job, no house, no car, no bank account - No plane ticket - an INS bus to the border, and anything you might have acquired here is forfeited.
"Get away from the border towns across the border, where there is opportunity for the talented and motivated to at least cater to the tourist business, and what have you?"
Mexico city is one of the largest cities in the world - SOMEONE is building there. I get about 7 Mexican TV channels up here filled with ads for Mexican goods that someone must be buying. That container carrier stuck on the beach by Ensenada is bring goods from somewhere that someone down there was buying.
Mexico shows as #44 on this per capita income chart - http://www.finfacts.com/biz10/globalworldincomepercapita.htm
We don't have to bring down our system, simply make it harder for illegals to succeed here then it would be staying home.
"Using the argument that the passport requirement will destroy their tourism does not cut it, simply because Americans carry their passports to myriad other places more expensive to visit."
Most visitors to southern CA don't even think about heading to TJ for the day until they arrive here, no reason to carry their passport on the trip - and about 80% of Americans don't even have passports. I sure don't carry mine around on the off chance I would be down that way and decide to cross over for a couple of Dos Equis.
"One of the best, most unambiguous, and time honored methods of delineating your property is to put up a fence."
Of course you realize there IS a fence in populated areas ( or in some cases a canal or river straddles the border) - without it I would have skipped the lines coming back a few times :-)
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