Posted on 01/22/2006 8:12:41 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez
Creationists call us to believe the Biblical creation story as a literal account of historical events. However, Genesis contains two distinctly different creation accounts. Which creation story are they calling us to "literally" believe?
For generations, serious students of Scripture have noted stark divisions and variations in the age of the Hebrew, its style and language within Genesis. As we have it now, Genesis is actually a composite of three written primary sources, each with its own character, favorite words and distinctly different names for God. Such differences all but evaporate when translated into English, but they are clear in the ancient Hebrew text.
The first creation account, Genesis. 1:1 to Genesis. 2:4a, was written during or after the Jews' Babylonian captivity. This fully developed story explains creation in terms of the ancient near eastern world view of its time. A watery chaos is divided by the dome (firmament) of the sky. The waters under the dome are gathered and land appears. Lights are affixed in the dome. All living things are created. The story pictures God building the cosmos as a supporting ecosystem for humanity. Finally, humanity, both male and female, is created, and God rests.
The second Creation story, Genesis 2:4b to 2:25, found its written form several centuries before the Genesis. 1:1 story. This text is a less developed and much older story. It was probably passed down for generations around the camp fires of desert dwellers before being written. It begins by describing a desert landscape, no plants or herbs, no rain; only a mist arises out of the earth. Then the Lord God forms man of the dust of the ground, creates an oasis-like Garden of Eden to support the "man whom he had formed." In this story, God creates animal life while trying to provide the man "a helper fit for him." None being found, God takes a rib from the man's side and creates the first woman. These two creation stories clearly arise out of different histories and reflect different concerns with different sequences of events. Can they either or both be literal history? Obviously not.
Many serious students of Scripture consider the first eleven chapters of Genesis as non-literal, pre-history type literature, with Abram in Genesis. 12:1 being the first literal historical figure in the Bible. This understanding of Genesis causes an uproar in some quarters. In most church communities, little of this textual study has filtered down to the pew. But, in their professional training, vast numbers of clergy have been exposed to this type of literary scriptural analysis.
In my over 28 years as a pastor, I have encountered many people who are unnecessarily conflicted because they have been made to believe that, to be faithfully religious, one must take a literal view of the Genesis creation accounts. Faced with their scientific understandings going one direction and their spiritual search another, many have felt compelled to give up their spiritual search altogether. This all too common reaction is an unnecessary shame!
So, the next time someone asks you if you believe the Biblical story of creation, just remember the correct reply: "To which Biblical creation story do you refer?"
I consider neither to be accurate. That you believe biblical prophecies to be accurate tells me all that I need to know about you.
I've read works of fiction in which prophesies were fulfilled. Numerous Jewish websites point out the so-called prophesies Jesus "fulfilled" were either not prophesies (i.e., the virgin birth) or did not exist in the OT.
As for prophesies in general, we have the problems inherent with either vague prophesies (how many generations over the past two millennia had thought they were living in the "end times" because of "signs" prophesied?) or with prophesies written after the fact (the Book of Daniel is a good candidate for this). Let's not even go at the possibility that some prophesies were inserted into ancient texts by later writers.
So no, fulfilled prophesies would not convince a skeptic.
And, my belief system should not enter into this in any way, shape or form -- because then any arguments would be predicated on "belief" not evidence.
Your question was whether it was impossible to refute my position. I answered it.
At least from 250 BC, huh? Yet the OT supposedly goes back more than a millennia prior to this. As for the writings of early church fathers, we had a thread not long ago in which a church was found bearing inscriptions from "an early version of the Gospel of Luke." In the body of the story it mentioned that some of the verses have changed from that version to the one we have now. So much for "accurately preserved."
We don't shun Mormons and JW in the sense that we cease to be friendly with them or share the true gospel with them. But we do shun them in the sense that we formally declare Mormon and JW belief as non-Christian.
Certainly, I agree with you. Mental assent that Jesus was the Son of God doesn't save you, for "even the Demons believe that". Putting your trust in Jesus to save you does.
But I do think a person can have genuine faith in Jesus to save them and yet still be royally screwed up on major doctrines, including the inerrancy of the Bible.
How can you make that claim, when we are still discovering functions of DNA that we didn't know were there?
DNA used to say it was impossible for two blue eyed people to have a brown eyed child because it was ASSUMED that there was a single gene pair responsible and blue eyes were a recessive gene. But we now know that there are at lest 5 gene pairs that influence eye color and we suspect there are more.
NIV Isaiah 9:1-2
1. Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the Gentiles, by the way of the sea, along the Jordan--
2. The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.
NIV Isaiah 42:6-7
6. "I, the LORD, have called you in righteousness; I will take hold of your hand. I will keep you and will make you to be a covenant for the people and a light for the Gentiles,
7. to open eyes that are blind, to free captives from prison and to release from the dungeon those who sit in darkness.
NIV Isaiah 49:5-6
5. And now the LORD says-- he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD and my God has been my strength--
6. he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."
NIV Isaiah 49:22
22. This is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I will beckon to the Gentiles, I will lift up my banner to the peoples; they will bring your sons in their arms and carry your daughters on their shoulders.
NIV Luke 2:28-32
28. Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:
29. "Sovereign Lord, as you have promised, you now dismiss your servant in peace.
30. For my eyes have seen your salvation,
31. which you have prepared in the sight of all people,
32. a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel."
NIV Matthew 4:13-16
13. Leaving Nazareth, he went and lived in Capernaum, which was by the lake in the area of Zebulun and Naphtali--
14. to fulfill what was said through the prophet Isaiah:
15. "Land of Zebulun and land of Naphtali, the way to the sea, along the Jordan, Gentile of the Gentiles--
16. the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned."
NIV Matthew 10:18
On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles.
NIV Acts 9:10-17
10. In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!" "Yes, Lord," he answered.
11. The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying.
12. In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight."
13. "Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem.
14. And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name."
15. But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel.
16. I will show him how much he must suffer for my name."
17. Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord--Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here--has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
NIV Acts 10:45-47
45. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.
46. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47. "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
NIV Acts 11:11. The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.
NIV Acts 11:18
18. When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."
NIV Acts 13:16
16. Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: "Men of Israel and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me!
NIV Ephesians 3:1-21
1. For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles--
2. Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you,
3. that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.
4. In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5. which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets.(Here it is:)
6. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7. I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power.
8. Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,
9. and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery , which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.
10. His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,
11. according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12. In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
13. I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.
14. For this reason I kneel before the Father,
15. from whom his whole family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
16. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
17. so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
18. may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
19. and to know this love that surpasses knowledge--that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
20. Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us,
21. to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
What are you doing in a CONSERVATIVE forum??
If all other examples of "histories" from the ancient world are slanted and exaggerated, why shouldn't one assume the same of Jewish history until evidence bears out differently?
Guilty until proven innocent indeed!
Only if he/she were blind or had never held a bat or a bird in their hand!
Self-referencial; can't use it.
Ouch!
Am I next?? ;^)
"NIV Matthew 10:5-6
5. These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
6. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.
"
Yup. That's what Jesus said. Later on...much later on, the Gentiles were added to the New Testament. There's support for it in the Old Testament, but not in the Gospels.
It's a puzzlement for some. Not for me.
Nope; He paid the price - came up with the cure.
All we have to do is take the medicine.
Oh come on..
http://www.direct.ca/trinity/pi.html
Too bad you don't KNOW!
That you dis-believe biblical prophecies to be accurate tells me a LOT about you!
And DU thinks that FR posters are all nuts!
(They may be partly right...)
Nope. Salvation was a gift (if my many evangelical friends are to be believed). Being a gift invokes no obligation on my part at all -- otherwise it wouldn't be a gift.
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