WHICH CREATION STORY?

A peace that passeth understanding and a faith that is sure of what we hope for and certain of what we cannot see - sometimes this must be communicated eye to eye, akin to an apostolic succession.

221 posted on 01/24/2006 12:34:02 PM PST by BuglerTex (Started on a 50's ES330 in early 60's lost track in 80's (down with disco))

We cannot gloss over the fact that Genesis has two stories with different accounting of events.

Let's look at this, ok?

Story #1

Genesis 1

1. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
2. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
3. And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
4. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.
5. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day.
6. And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water."
7. So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so.
8. God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning--the second day.
9. And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so.
10. God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good.
11. Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so.
12. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
13. And there was evening, and there was morning--the third day.
14. And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,
15. and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so.
16. God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
17. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth,
18. to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
19. And there was evening, and there was morning--the fourth day.
20. And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."
21. So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
22. God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth."
23. And there was evening, and there was morning--the fifth day.
24. And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.
25. God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
26. Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
27. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
28. God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29. Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.
30. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
31. God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day.

Story #2

Genesis 2

1. Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

(This sums up chapter #1)

2. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.
3. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.
4. This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.

(here is the 'seventh' day)

(Now comes the recap of the previous stuff, pointing out MAN's part in it all...)

When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens--
5. and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground,
6. but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground--
7. the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
8. Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.
9. And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground--trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10. A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters.
11. The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold.
12. (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.)
13. The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.
14. The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
15. The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
16. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;
17. but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
18. The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
19. Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.
20. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found.
21. So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh.
22. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23. The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called `woman, ' for she was taken out of man."
24. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
25. The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

One thing that confuses some folks is the fact that there are CHAPTERS AND VERSES WITH NUMBERS that appear to break up the text and 'create' two creations. These are NOT in the old texts, but were added in the Middle Ages.

There is NO split between Ge 1:31 and Gen 2:1 in the Hebrew. (You'll note that Ge 2:4 is actually TWO sentences as well.)

Maybe THIS will help....

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day.

And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning--the second day.

And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so. God called the dry ground "land," and the gathered waters he called "seas." And God saw that it was good. Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the third day.

And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,
and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. God made two great lights--the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the fourth day.

And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky." So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth." And there was evening, and there was morning--the fifth day.

And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground." Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground--everything that has the breath of life in it--I give every green plant for food." And it was so. God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning--the sixth day.

Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.
And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.

When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens-- and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground-- the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground--trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin and onyx are also there.) The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.

The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."

Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
The man said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called `woman, ' for she was taken out of man." For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. The man and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame.

222 posted on 01/24/2006 12:35:51 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)

In fact, reactionary, in that he insisted that people follow the basic rules as instructed by God.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate, for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there be who go in thereat." Matthew 7:13
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." Matthew 7:14
"Strive to enter in at the strait gate, for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in and shall not be able." Luke 13:24

I don't see how your premiss follows from the Scripture you've posted?

223 posted on 01/24/2006 12:39:02 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)

Unlike other religions, Christianity offered a simple approach to salvation, based on anonement for human frailty through the sacrifice of Jesus.

Mind you, I'm just laying out the basics, but...they're enough, all by themselves, according to the Gospels, for salvation.

MMGA, I think you're not too far from the Kingdom! ;^)

224 posted on 01/24/2006 12:41:17 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)

Now, I don't want to start a debate on this thread about the Mormon belief system; there are other threads on the Religion Forum that address the issue for anyone who's interested.

Just do not post any of their ~~secret~~ oops... SACRED rituals there, for they WILL be removed!

(Just why are they so Secretive??)

225 posted on 01/24/2006 12:47:19 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)

"One more that I believe few Christians have done is taken the time to "know why they are saved".

I would hope more Christians take that journey from the heart to the head and mature in their faith.
To often many Christians only get caught up in the emotion of the Spirit."

What you say makes a lot of sense. I see a lot of new Christians who seem to have heard a lot of preaching on Paul's epistles, but precious little from the Gospels.

I can recognize them, because you rarely see them quote from the first four books of the New Testament, where Jesus' words are recorded. Generally, they find their material for quotations in Paul's writings.

A protestant Bible scholar I used to have conversations with once told me that too few churches spent enough time on the Gospels, leaving many new Christians, especially, with a very limited knowledge of the words of Jesus. I think he was right.

In my opinion, every new Christian should begin by becoming intimately familiar with the Gospels before continuing their studies in the rest of the NT. It has always seemed to me that the core of Christianity resides in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The rest is commentary.

226 posted on 01/24/2006 12:51:50 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)

Still, you do know how to use HTML. Very good!

Don't be impressed. I merely use my Outlook Express e-mail.

Just format your stuff the way you want it, then click on the SOURCE tab and trim out between the <BODY> tags.

(Trim out the BLUE text to get the sample)

This is a sample

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.2802" name=GENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=#ffffff>
<FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3>

<EM>This <STRONG>is a</STRONG> <FONT color=#ff0000>sample</FONT></EM></FONT>
</BODY></HTML>

227 posted on 01/24/2006 12:54:31 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)

To: metmom; Brooklyn Kid; MineralMan

To echo Metmon's comments on Mormoms and Jehovah Witnesses (JW). Disdain for their teachings, not for the individuals themselves.

They both alter the nature of God, the nature of Salvation and use "new scripture" to contradict the old, in order for their beliefs to be accepted.

1) The nature of God.
Mormons believe that Jesus was a man who was promoted to be a God, a different God from the Father, just as the Father was a man who was promoted to be a God before Jesus. And that there is a never ending line of Gods, all of whom started out as mere men. Mormons themselves will become Gods if they are good enough.
JW believe that Jesus was not God, but a creation, Michael the Archangel. Jesus is not to be worshipped in their view.

2) The nature of Salvation
Mormons believe that the salvation that comes from Jesus is a minimal salvation that does not make perfect but that does keep one out of hell. Almost everyone will accept this minimal salvation either in this life or the next. The only people that will go to hell are "the really really bad people". To be made perfect, requires work and the Mormon that is good enough becomes "exalted" and acheives Godhood just as Jesus and all the other Gods did. They will get their own world to be God over.
JW believe that Jesus only atoned for Adam's sin. To atone for one's individual sin, you must work. Specifically you must work in the JW church, because there is no salvation apart from it.

3) Use of "more correct Scriptures"
Mormons claim the Old and New Testament have become corrupted and are missing "many plain and precious parts". They claim the Book of Mormon is the most correct of any scripture although it does not introduce any new doctrine. Their book Pearls of Great Price is where their new doctrines come from and are supposed to be prophetic pronouncements that are more accurate than old scripture.
JW have their own translation of scripture which appears to have been written specifically do deny the deity of Jesus and which greek scholars universally condemn as an inaccurate translation.

228 posted on 01/24/2006 12:54:54 PM PST by DannyTN

Are you serious?

It was a trick! ;^)

229 posted on 01/24/2006 12:55:56 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)

In my opinion, every new Christian should begin by becoming intimately familiar with the Gospels before continuing their studies in the rest of the NT. It has always seemed to me that the core of Christianity resides in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. The rest is commentary.

To what end? Familiarity with the Gospels is fairly useless apart from an intimate familiarity with the Old Testament.

230 posted on 01/24/2006 1:00:32 PM PST by papertyger (We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.)

To: colorado tanker

...not unless we sign Kyoto.

Well, it will, but we just won't be able to SEE it! ;^)

231 posted on 01/24/2006 1:01:13 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)

"Just do not post any of their secret oops... SACRED rituals there, for they WILL be removed!

(Just why are they so Secretive??)"

Elsie, I'll give you some very good advice: Concentrate on your own faith and leave that of others to the others. There is much to learn within your own faith...so much that you may well spend a lifetime learning it.

The LDS has it's own teachings. Its members learn those teachings. Unless you have an interest in becoming a Mormon, I don't think there's much for you there. Instead, take your Bible in hand and begin in Matthew. Read it until you have virtually committed it to memory. Then move on to the other three Gospels. Once you are so familiar with those that you immediately recognize any passage from them, you can safely move on to the rest of the New Testament.

Without a clear knowledge of the Gospels, however, you will err in your understanding of, say, Paul's epistles. You will misunderstand what he wrote. It happens all too often that new Christians fail to learn Jesus' words and turn to later writings, only to misunderstand them and come into error.

What the Mormons believe is really not your concern. Their beliefs do not affect you. When you have learned and understood the entire New Testament, then you can begin to discuss the LDS church, after learning what it believes. Until then, you are a baby Christian, still not ready for the solid food of the rest of the New Testament.

Now, since I'm an atheist, you may not think my advice is worthwile, but it's advice often given to new Christians, and to those who haven't learned the basics of their own faith.

Read the Gospels if you really want to find out what Jesus taught.

232 posted on 01/24/2006 1:01:37 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)

"To what end? Familiarity with the Gospels is fairly useless apart from an intimate familiarity with the Old Testament."

Is it? I don't think so. Neither do all those missionaries out there teaching Christianity to folks who will never learn the Old Testament. Oh, I think that the Gospels are the key thing for Gentiles to read. Once they are understood, there is time to dive into the Old Testament.

233 posted on 01/24/2006 1:04:19 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)

"It was a trick! ;^)"

To what end? Why are you trying to trick me? It won't work.

234 posted on 01/24/2006 1:05:12 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)

Read the Gospels if you really want to find out what Jesus taught.

And it's His words that gets one into the OT - all the Scripture references from there.

235 posted on 01/24/2006 1:07:33 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)

3rd Chapter of John

Not bad for a godless atheist.

You are right that a belief about a literal interpretation of Genesis is not going to affect a person's salvation. But it does open them up to second guessing a lot of scripture.

Basically a Christian can err about a lot of different doctrines and still be a Christian. The key belief comes down to a faith in God and in His work of salvation through Jesus to redeem us of our sins.

The reasons that the Mormons and JW are shunned by other Christians is that it is this key belief on who God is and what salvation is and how it is acheived that is distorted.

How much distortion will God allow and still count them as Christian? That I can't answer. But the Apostle Paul did issue a warning about distorted Jesus's and distorted salvation messages and said that they were not the same.

But as far was we Christians are concerned, when they start disparaging the scriptures to make way for their own beliefs, when they believe in works instead of grace, when they deny the diety of Jesus in contradiction to the clear passages of scripture. They are in such serious error on key doctrines that we don't want to be associated with them at all.

236 posted on 01/24/2006 1:08:08 PM PST by DannyTN

To find out where you were coming from. I ALWAYS want to find out where people get their ideas from.

237 posted on 01/24/2006 1:08:55 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)

"The reasons that the Mormons and JW are shunned by other Christians is that it is this key belief on who God is and what salvation is and how it is acheived that is distorted. "

It's interesting that you use the word "shunned." I've always wondered why any Christian would "shun" anyone. That, to me, seems like a real denial of the core of Christianity.

Perhaps you meant something else, and just used the wrong word.

238 posted on 01/24/2006 1:13:50 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)

"To find out where you were coming from."

Trickery is not required. I answer questions directly and honestly. Trickery gets something else from me, and that's generally in the form of sarcasm.

If you have a question, I'll answer it. If you wish to try to trick me, you'll fail, and you'll get a different response.

239 posted on 01/24/2006 1:15:22 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)

To: SuzyQue; MineralMan

"I don't see how someone could be a Bible "literalist" and ignore/deny parts of the Bible"

So when do you apply your 1000 years = 1 day/era formula.

Was Jesus dead and buried 3 days or 3000 years?

The word and context for day in Genesis can point to nothing but a literal 24 hour day period.

JM

240 posted on 01/24/2006 1:22:18 PM PST by JohnnyM

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