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WHICH CREATION STORY?
Sullivan County Tenn ^ | Unknown | Rev. James W. Watkins

Posted on 01/22/2006 8:12:41 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez

Creationists call us to believe the Biblical creation story as a literal account of historical events. However, Genesis contains two distinctly different creation accounts. Which creation story are they calling us to "literally" believe?

For generations, serious students of Scripture have noted stark divisions and variations in the age of the Hebrew, its style and language within Genesis. As we have it now, Genesis is actually a composite of three written primary sources, each with its own character, favorite words and distinctly different names for God. Such differences all but evaporate when translated into English, but they are clear in the ancient Hebrew text.

The first creation account, Genesis. 1:1 to Genesis. 2:4a, was written during or after the Jews' Babylonian captivity. This fully developed story explains creation in terms of the ancient near eastern world view of its time. A watery chaos is divided by the dome (firmament) of the sky. The waters under the dome are gathered and land appears. Lights are affixed in the dome. All living things are created. The story pictures God building the cosmos as a supporting ecosystem for humanity. Finally, humanity, both male and female, is created, and God rests.

The second Creation story, Genesis 2:4b to 2:25, found its written form several centuries before the Genesis. 1:1 story. This text is a less developed and much older story. It was probably passed down for generations around the camp fires of desert dwellers before being written. It begins by describing a desert landscape, no plants or herbs, no rain; only a mist arises out of the earth. Then the Lord God forms man of the dust of the ground, creates an oasis-like Garden of Eden to support the "man whom he had formed." In this story, God creates animal life while trying to provide the man "a helper fit for him." None being found, God takes a rib from the man's side and creates the first woman. These two creation stories clearly arise out of different histories and reflect different concerns with different sequences of events. Can they either or both be literal history? Obviously not.

Many serious students of Scripture consider the first eleven chapters of Genesis as non-literal, pre-history type literature, with Abram in Genesis. 12:1 being the first literal historical figure in the Bible. This understanding of Genesis causes an uproar in some quarters. In most church communities, little of this textual study has filtered down to the pew. But, in their professional training, vast numbers of clergy have been exposed to this type of literary scriptural analysis.

In my over 28 years as a pastor, I have encountered many people who are unnecessarily conflicted because they have been made to believe that, to be faithfully religious, one must take a literal view of the Genesis creation accounts. Faced with their scientific understandings going one direction and their spiritual search another, many have felt compelled to give up their spiritual search altogether. This all too common reaction is an unnecessary shame!

So, the next time someone asks you if you believe the Biblical story of creation, just remember the correct reply: "To which Biblical creation story do you refer?"


TOPICS: Philosophy
KEYWORDS: bible; creation; crevolist; evolution; genesis; id; postedinwrongforum; religion
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To: MineralMan; K4Harty
The Roman Catholic Church, the largest denomination of Christianity, does not teach it as literal fact, and even allows for evolution as a good explanation for the multiplicity of species.

The Catholic church does not (in many cases) believe the Bible, and they make no apology for following the traditions of men rather than Scripture.

Just because they are "big" doesn't make that belief correct.

Also, most people who are Catholic are born into the religion, they do not convert to it or choose it.

John 5:46  For had ye believed Moses,
ye would have believed me:
for he wrote of me.
47  But if ye believe not his writings,
how shall ye believe my words?

281 posted on 01/24/2006 7:49:17 PM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: LauraleeBraswell

So which version is right?


282 posted on 01/24/2006 7:52:22 PM PST by dyed_in_the_wool ("Man's character is his destiny" - Heracleitus)
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To: MineralMan
A literal belief in the creation story is not one of the requirements for Christianity, as far as I know. At least Jesus never said anything about it, as far as his teachings are recorded

John 1:1
 ¶In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2  The same was in the beginning with God.
3  All things were made by him;
and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4  In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

John 5:46
 For had ye believed Moses,
ye would have believed me:
for he wrote of me.
47  But if ye believe not his writings,
how shall ye believe my words?

283 posted on 01/24/2006 7:52:39 PM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: MineralMan; HitmanNY
It seems to me that Jesus was not interested in exclusivity in his teachings.

Matthew 7:13
 Enter ye in at the strait gate:
for wide is the gate,
and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction,
and many there be which go in thereat:
14  Because strait is the gate,
and narrow is the way,
which leadeth unto life,
and few there be that find it.

284 posted on 01/24/2006 7:58:00 PM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: MineralMan; SuzyQue
It can not be an allegory and if it wasn't true, it would mean that God was a liar, which would wipe out his moral authority.

The proof that Creation is not an allegory is found here:

Romans 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,
even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
who is the figure of him that was to come.

There was no death upon Earth until Adam sinned.

285 posted on 01/24/2006 8:07:29 PM PST by Full Court (Keepers at home, do you think it's optional?)
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To: papertyger
What passed as "history" during the ancient world wasn't what we consider history. Historians in the ancient world were interested in getting a certain point across/ teaching a certain lesson more than they were stating the facts. There was nothing akin to a grade school history text book with names, dates, places, etc. Josephus' history of the Jewish Revolt is considered the Source for information about Judah in the late 1st Century CE, and most of that information can be independently verified and was written many centuries after the Bible. However, that work still contains a view point. Ditto with all the famous Greek/ Roman historians.

Therefore, I think that it's safe to say that the parts of the Hebrew Bible that are "historical" are written to prove a specific point. It isn't like the Biblical writers decided to write a timeline. However, that idea is moot when discussing Genesis 1-11, because these stories were clearly creation myths meant to tell people how God created the Earth, why there's many different cultures, etc. These stories probably started out as oral legends and were written down in Babylon during the Exile so the people wouldn't forget their religion. Babylonian myths, scenery, etc. were incorporated into them to make them more timely and to also to criticize Akkadian religion. (Creation 1 is a clear polemic against the Babylonian religion; God "creates" all the Enuma Elish gods).
286 posted on 01/24/2006 8:08:02 PM PST by Accygirl
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To: SuzyQue
And it looks like you quietly disappeared instead of answering the questions I posed to you in post 250....did you?
287 posted on 01/24/2006 8:37:17 PM PST by pby
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To: Elsie
If there were no one man, that means SIN did NOT enter the World thru him.

If Adam was NOT the one man, that means SPIRITUAL DEATH did not come thru him.

If SIN did NOT enter the World thru the one man, that means Jesus does not save from SIN.

Very good! Who says Creationists can't learn? ;->

1 Timothy 2:13
  For Adam was formed first, then Eve.

Was Paul WRONG about this???

It's been explained to you why Paul couldn't have wrote I & II Timothy or Titus. But whomever did write it was wrong.

288 posted on 01/24/2006 8:47:09 PM PST by dread78645 (Intelligent Design. It causes people to lie - joebucks)
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To: MineralMan
What you say makes a lot of sense. I see a lot of new Christians who seem to have heard a lot of preaching on Paul's epistles, but precious little from the Gospels.

Quite true.

Instead of 'Christians', they ought to label themselves 'Paulians'.

289 posted on 01/24/2006 8:55:01 PM PST by dread78645 (Intelligent Design. It causes people to lie - joebucks)
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To: Accygirl
... these stories were clearly creation myths meant to tell people how God created the Earth, why there's many different cultures, etc.

Duh

Of course the Bible was meant to tell people how God created the Earth, why there's many different cultures, etc.

A five year old could figure that out. The question is, how does that fact alone infer that they are myths.

These stories probably started out...

Probably?...and here I thought you had proof for your statement of certainty in the first quote.

290 posted on 01/24/2006 9:00:51 PM PST by csense
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To: Luis Gonzalez
Cain speaking to God:

Genesis 4:14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.

Luis Gonzalez: Curious thing for Cain to say...who is "every one" when there was no one else on the Earth?

Luis, you missed three verses:

Genesis 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. and the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. [Is it a curious thing for God to say "whosoever?"]

Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Genesis 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

Don't use today's model of two children as the typical family - Adam and Eve multiplied!!!

291 posted on 01/25/2006 2:38:38 AM PST by backslacker (Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding Job 38)
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To: dread78645
It's been explained to you why Paul couldn't have wrote I & II Timothy or Titus. But whomever did write it was wrong.

Please point me to that explanation.

292 posted on 01/25/2006 3:13:57 AM PST by papertyger (We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.)
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To: pby
Did the FSM produce inspired writings like God did with the Bible?

Don't know about inspired writings, but the FSM tee-shirts are cool.

293 posted on 01/25/2006 3:31:15 AM PST by Ben Chad
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To: Accygirl
Restating a non sequitur does not make it any less the non sequitur.

Your entire rationale is utterly circular. Furthermore, it's 'special pleading' as you give no hint of the incidences where the Biblical record has been vindicated (much to the chagrin of 'experts') such as the existence of the Hittites, or the composition of the Babylonian court when it fell to the Medio-Persians.

It would seem your contribution to this thread is more projection than discussion.

294 posted on 01/25/2006 3:40:38 AM PST by papertyger (We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.)
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To: papertyger
I Timothy
II Timothy
Titus
The Epistles to Timothy and Titus
295 posted on 01/25/2006 3:54:58 AM PST by dread78645 (Intelligent Design. It causes people to lie - joebucks)
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To: papertyger; Accygirl
She does have a point: "history" as we know it now, with its attempts at objectivity in recording of events and the individuals involved, is a very recent phenomenon. In classical times histories were commissioned by patrons who wanted specific points to be put across. For example, one need only read some of the Egyptian accounts of various battles where the pharaohs never lost a battle and personally killed hundreds of enemies.

Exaggeration is so common in ancient "histories" (including the OT) that one of my Western Civ professors in college recommended that, when we came across a reference to a specific number of people or soldiers, to divide the number by 10 to get a more accurate "body count."

296 posted on 01/25/2006 4:02:48 AM PST by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: dread78645

Could you be a little more concise? Perhaps you could point me to the explanation Elsie was given.


297 posted on 01/25/2006 4:03:13 AM PST by papertyger (We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.)
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To: papertyger
Could you be a little more concise? Perhaps you could point me to the explanation Elsie was given.

In 140CE, Marcion -- bishop of Sinope, wrote the first explicit canon. The Old Testament was excluded -- that was of the Jewish God. Just two divisions: Euangelion, the Gospel of the Lord, and Apostolikon, the epistles of Paul. The pastorals were not mentioned in Marcion's canon.

After Marcion was excommunicated in 144 as a threat to the Roman church, the Church then had to get busy with organization and rejecting "false doctrine".
Which, surprisingly, just happens to be the core of the pastoral letters.

More surprisingly, is that the "false doctrine" that Paul preached against in Galatians was the "Judaizers". But somehow the "false doctrine" in the pastorals is Gnosticism (I Tim 6:20).

The "Judaizers" of Paul's time was the Church of James, Peter, and John in Jerusalem. Of course after 70CE the Jerusalem Church was no longer a problem, -- but gnostic cults were sprouting up like weeds. This was a problem for the early church.

Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna (who opposed Marcion calling him "first-born of Satan."), was instrumental in developing the church doctrine against "false teachings" and it shows in Philippians. However it wasn't until his student, Irenaeus, that we have the first documented quotations, evidence of the existence of the Pastoral letters. ~170CE.

Did I mention Paul died in 66CE ?

Finally, the oldest manuscript of the letters of Paul we have is dated c.200 and is generally known as Papyrus 46. This codex does not contain the Pastoral letters (nor Philemon, interestingly enough).

Post 228

298 posted on 01/25/2006 4:30:51 AM PST by dread78645 (Intelligent Design. It causes people to lie - joebucks)
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To: Junior

Her 'point' is impeachment by association. I see no reason to give benefit of doubt on a theoretical possibility of doubt.


299 posted on 01/25/2006 4:31:48 AM PST by papertyger (We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.)
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To: Brooklyn Kid

I don't think JW or Mormons accept Jesus as their saviour


300 posted on 01/25/2006 4:44:38 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia!)
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