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Mormon connection to Masons explored ahead of 'Da Vinci Code' sequel
Salt Lake City Tribune ^ | 1/13/06 | Peggy Fletcher Stack

Posted on 01/20/2006 10:28:11 AM PST by TFFKAMM

Dan Brown clearly enjoys playing with legends, history, symbols and secrets. And readers' minds. In his best-selling novel, The Da Vinci Code, Brown wove all these - real and imagined - into a breathless mystery about Christianity, Mary Magdalene and the Divine Feminine that has spawned an industry of de-coders eager to separate fact from fiction.
    Now that he has turned his attention to the mysteries of Freemasonry, the centuries-old fraternal order, the new book also might deal with Mormonism.
   But rather than announce the Da Vinci sequel in a news release, Brown embedded tantalizing clues to its subject on the book's jacket. Written in typeface that is slightly larger and bolder than the rest (it requires a magnifying glass to find them all) are the words: is there no help for the widows son.
    "O Lord, my God, is there no help for the widow's son?" was used historically as a Masonic distress call, but when journalist David Shugarts plugged it into Google, the first hit was a 1974 speech given by an LDS Institute of Religion teacher, Reed C. Durham, at the University of Utah.
   Joseph Smith, the founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, reportedly began to utter the call as he fell from a second story window after being fatally shot by a mob in a Carthage, Ill., jail in 1844, Durham said.
   In an electrifying presidential address to the Mormon History Association meeting in Nauvoo, Ill., he traced close parallels between Smith's account of digging gold plates out of a New York hillside and Masonic tales of Enoch and buried treasure. Smith wore a "Jupiter talisman," or what his wife called "his Masonic jewel," and LDS temple ceremonies bear a striking resemblance to Masonic rituals, he said.
   The

The Winding Staircase, like all Masonic symbols, is illustrative of discipline and doctrine, and opens to us a wide field of moral and speculative inquiry.

(Chris Detrick/The Salt Lake Tribune)

speech was so controversial that Durham's superiors in the LDS Educational System forced him to issue a public apology.
   The speech was never published but was surreptitiously taped and has floated around on the Internet for years.
   It may have also caught Brown's attention, Shugarts speculates, and may provide one plot twist in Brown's next book, tentatively titled The Solomon Key. Brown confirmed in a speech last year that the book's mystery will be set in Washington, D.C., where many architectural features were drawn from Masonry, and will feature the same lead character, Harvard-professor-turned-detective Robert Langdom.
   Getting a jump on the novel's historical context, Shugarts has written Secrets of the Widow's Son: The Mysteries Surrounding the Sequel to The Da Vinci Code.
   He provides a broad history of Mormonism, including its brush with Masonry in the 19th century. It also offers nuggets about Masonic history such as these: At least eight signers of the Declaration of Independence were Masons, as were 13 U.S. presidents including George Washington. A Freemason released Paul Revere from British custody on the night of his famous ride, after he determined that Revere was a Mason. Mozart's "Magic Flute" and Rudyard Kipling's The Man Who Would Be King were written as Masonic allegories.
   The Washington Monument and a similar monument on Bunker Hill in Boston, were not just coincidentally shaped like an Egyptian obelisks, but intentionally designed to honor Masonic allusions to ancient Egyptian mystical wisdom.
   Much of the symbolism is mathematical, even geometrical, which could explain why the fraternity has attracted rationalists such as Voltaire, Goethe, Benjamin Franklin and Mark Twain.
   "We've heard from Masons

One of the rooms in the Temple. The Salt Lake Masonic Temple was completed in 1927 and was built in 1 year, 3 months, and 22 days. The architect of the temple was Carl W. Scott and George W Welch.

(Chris Detrick/The Salt Lake Tribune)

that they feel that [Brown is] going to do them justice," says Dan Burstein, who wrote the introduction to Shugarts' book. "He seems to be favorably disposed to thinking of Masons as an important historical underground movement, pushing the world towards democracy and enlightenment."
   Today there are nearly 2 million Masons in the United States, with 2,250 members in 29 Utah lodges.
   "We have a lot of Mormons who are Masons in this state, but we don't know exactly how many," says Ridgley Gilmour, Grand Master of Utah Masonic Lodge. "Anyone with a belief in God can petition to join but we don't ask what religion they are."
   Gilmour was adamant the Masonry is not a "secret society," but a fraternal order with large-scale charitable giving built on deeply held American values of family, God and country.
   "The only secrets we have are little signs and passwords which we use because it's an ancient custom, and, frankly, it's fun,'' Gilmour says.
   It remains to be seen how much Mormon history will feature in the novel, (Brown's wife reportedly was raised in the LDS Church) but if the reaction to Durham's 1974 speech is any indication, any link between the two could be controversial in Utah.
   For his part, Nicholas S. Literski, an active Mormon and Mason living in Nauvoo, thinks Latter-day Saints misunderstand the similarities. But they are significant.
    "Everybody wants to obsess over supposed similarities in ritual," he says. "But that's just one aspect. Everything about Joseph and his family was tied into Masonic legends."
   
    The Mormon connection: Smith's father, Joseph Smith Sr. joined a Masonic lodge when the family moved to Palmyra,


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N.Y., in 1816. Later, Smith's brother Hyrum also joined. From them, Smith heard the story of a lost sacred word that was engraved upon a triangular plate of pure gold. The word was the name of God.
   It makes sense that he would go searching for such treasure in the large American Indian burial mounds near his home, says Literski, author of the forthcoming book, Method Infinite: Freemasonry and the Mormon Restoration.
   And when Smith reported finding an ancient record written on plates of gold, he used "distinctively Masonic language to describe the experience," Literski says.
   The church, which claimed to restore ancient truths of Christianity lost through the ages, attracted many members of the Masonic fraternity who traced their own roots back centuries and had similar esoteric teachings.
   By the 1840s, many Mormon leaders in Nauvoo, including Smith and apostles Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball, became Masons and organized a lodge there under the auspices of the Grand Lodge of Illinois. It wasn't long before nearly every male member of the church in the area had joined. At the same time, Smith introduced LDS temple rituals that included secret handshakes, signs and symbols like the all-seeing eye, the compass and square (tools of the mason's trade) and the sun, moon and stars that echoed Masonry.
    Soon, though, other Masons felt that the Mormons were dominating the fraternity. In 1842, the Nauvoo Lodge was suspended. Many Mormons believed that Masons contributed to the murder of their prophet.
   Antagonisms built up between the two groups. In Utah in 1860, Masonic lodges were established but they prohibited Mormons from joining. At the same time, Young forbade Mormons from joining and refused to allow any Mason to hold

priesthood leadership positions in the church, Literski says.
   It wasn't until 1984 that LDS President Spencer W. Kimball removed the prohibition against Latter-day Saints becoming Freemasons. Later that year, the Grand Lodge of Utah removed its own ban on Mormon membership so that, in the ensuing years, many Latter-day Saint men have returned to this part of their heritage.
   
    In the novelist's mind: Shugarts says it was not his intention to be a plot spoiler for Brown's sequel. He couldn't do that if he wanted. But he did offer a primer on Masonry and Mormonism for those who will want to explore, as they did with Da Vinci, just how much of what Brown writes is really history.
   "I had to push out in every direction possible," Shugarts said in a phone interview from his Connecticut home. "I read five books about Mormon history and thousands of Internet Web sites. I tried to be thorough and fair."
   Though he only dedicated four or five pages to Mormons in a 200-page book, he's already heard from unhappy Latter-day Saints who accuse him of misreading or a biased approach to LDS history, a charge he rejects.
   "Prior to embarking on my research, I had no particular opinion of Joseph Smith or the details of the founding of the [LDS ]Church," he wrote to one critic. "But I had met a few Mormons and they always impressed me as fine people. After delving into the story of Joseph Smith, I understood a lot more about LDS. I remain impressed that Mormons are fine people."
    It will be interesting to see if Brown sees them that way as well. Literski isn't worried.
   "He'll weave a good conspiracy," Literski says, "but no matter how inventive Dan Brown gets in terms of the connection, he will fall short of just how deep

that story does go."
   Even in Smith's day, there were Masons who believed the legends were historical truth and saw Freemasonry as a deeply spiritual, mystical quest. Other, more sophisticated members, discounted the old stories, wanting to refocus it along the lines of a charitable and benevolent institution.
    The Smiths were about as far into mysticism as you can get, Literski says. "Joseph was rebuilding Solomon's temple with all the legendary baggage that came along with that."
    Seeing the relationship between the two groups forces Mormons like Literski to revise his ideas about how God interacts with a prophet.
   "You cannot understand what is going on in Joseph's mind unless you can know what he is seeing, hearing, feeling and touching," he says. "That gives me a stronger position of faith than would this idea that revelation is ex nihilo. Joseph was not a puppet."
    ---
   Contact Peggy Fletcher Stack at pstack@sltrib.com or 801-257-8725. Send comments on this article to religioneditor@sltrib.com.
   
   


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Miscellaneous; Philosophy; US: Utah
KEYWORDS: bible; bookreview; christianbashing; christianity; christians; conspiracy; conspiracytheory; cult; danbrown; danbrownisaconartist; davincicode; freemason; godsgravesglyphs; hollyweird; illuminati; ldschurch; masonry; masonsruletheworld; mormon; mormonism; popculture; religiousintolerance; revisionisthistory; utah; workoffiction
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To: TFFKAMM

No mention of the Trilateral Commission.
Hack.


181 posted on 01/21/2006 9:48:21 AM PST by mabelkitty
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To: JRochelle

So "Baptists" and "Methodists" and "Adventists" wouldn't be Christians since they don't refer themselves as such? We as LDS have been asked to refer to ourselves as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, that is quit a bit to say.


182 posted on 01/21/2006 9:50:15 AM PST by Adam-ondi-Ahman
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To: BritExPatInFla

Thank you for that awesome rebuttle. I believe you are on to something...LOL.


183 posted on 01/21/2006 9:56:05 AM PST by napscoordinator
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To: colorcountry; Dan(9698)
>>A member in good standing like you…

It was April and reinstatement means? (Lots of people have been reinstated after their families request it; they are dead. John D. Lee is now being judged by Jesus Christ, if Jesus Christ allows it he will get everything, if not….)

Proof of conspiracy “It’s complicated” that is not proof, and you would be disappointed in me if I accepted that.

Fairlds: “The Foundation for Apologetic Information & Research (FAIR) was formed in late 1997 by a group of LDS defenders of the faith…”

A good site, I will spend some time on it, but not an official Church site, and cannot admit culpability for the church in a conspiracy any more than I can confess to a crime for you.

>>So it's a very, very hard thing to discuss especially if you're a Mormon and
>>especially as I know some of you are descended from people who were involved
>>in this.

Not hard at all, my ancestors of the time were not even Mormons.

Maybe my requests for proof were not clear, and for that I apologize.

From post #98
>> The one man that took responsibility for the WHOLE Church...AND that includes YOU it seems.

You are stating as “fact” that there was a conspiracy, cover-up, and that Dan(9698) is involved in it. I don’t care that he was excommunicated, or reinstated, or what it says on his tombstone (Pizza or granite) I don’t care who bought it, or who placed it on the grave. None of this is proof of a conspiracy, and since John D. Lee went to this grave denouncing the then current leadership (from what I have read, I was not there) I think it is unlikely he was a willing participant in a cover-up for them.

Your proof to the contrary please.
184 posted on 01/21/2006 10:48:50 AM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: colorcountry

BTW How Does John D Lee hook Mormons into the Masons?

I would think Joseph Smith and Brigham Young having been Masons would be a better connection (and one that is well publicized by the church)


185 posted on 01/21/2006 10:51:25 AM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Dan(9698)
until youre ready to speak honestly - we have little left to discuss - you obfuscate and deny plain truths , and at the same time try and classify yourself as a Christian denomination, packaged in a family friendly caucasian envelope....guilt free, persecuted, tarred and feathered by the evil

have at it

a denial of the trinitarian nature of God is and always will be heretical -

Thanks for at least clarifying where your church stands

186 posted on 01/21/2006 11:12:44 AM PST by Revelation 911 (God is love, Love endures forever, Love God, Love your neighbor, Vengeance is mine)
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To: uglybiker

I found this at http://www.apologeticsindex.org/news1/an010723-05.html.
Theologically, Mormonism is a cult of Christianity. It does not represent historical, biblical Christianity in any way. Based on fantasy, plagiarism, and outright heresy, Mormonism is not the ''restored church of Jesus Christ.'' For one thing, the Mormon ''Jesus'' is incompatible with the historial Jesus as portrayed in the Bible. Hence, Mormons can not legitimately claim to be Christians.


187 posted on 01/21/2006 11:20:07 AM PST by JRochelle
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To: uglybiker

Thanks Brother ~ Bump!


188 posted on 01/21/2006 11:26:30 AM PST by blackie
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To: Revelation 911; Dan(9698); Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; Corin Stormhands; blue-duncan; Alex Murphy; ...
Allow me to add a few passages of my own, this time from the Tanakh (the OT), using the KJV:

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God (Heb. El Gibbowr), The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. --Isa. 9:6

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth. In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this [is] his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS (Heb. YHVH Tzidkenu).

Hmm, the prophets seem clear that God Himself would be the King from the line of David. Here's another:
And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn. --Zec. 12:9-10
Who will destroy the nations who will come against Jerusalem? God. Who will pour out the Spirit on them? God.

Whom shall they look on who is pierced?

God.

The fact that Yeshua the Messiah, Jesus Christ, is one and the same as the I AM of the burning bush who spoke to Moses is so evident in Scripture that there really shouldn't even be a debate.

189 posted on 01/21/2006 11:51:44 AM PST by Buggman (L'chaim b'Yeshua HaMashiach!)
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To: Revelation 911
...until youre ready to speak honestly ...

Maybe I misunderstood your post.

Lets see if I have it right. Around 300 AD the second Pope Constantine convened the college of Cardinals and added the Trinitarian Nature of God to the Scriptures. OK if you say so.

The problem with that is the 300 years that people did not believe that. I guess they weren't Christians either.

Oh well, I think I am in good company believing the same as they did.

190 posted on 01/21/2006 11:53:44 AM PST by Dan(9698)
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To: Revelation 911
Here is the stand of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -

Joseph Smith, Jr., as a 14 year old boy, saw God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ as two, distinct personages. The presence of the Holy Ghost was also there. One can either ask God if his testimony is true, and get his/her own witness, or not. No one can effectively argue with me that the Holy Ghost hasn't testified of the truth of that event. It is personal.

The Bible has been sufficiently obfuscated over the centuries that one can create an infinite number of faiths from it (as is evident in the world). John said that if all the works and words of Jesus were written, it would fill the earth. We have additional scripture from Jesus himself, as well as other prophets, that clarify matters. We believe in continued revelation to this day from God. God reveals truth, not the arguments of men (including me).
191 posted on 01/21/2006 12:11:42 PM PST by Adam-ondi-Ahman
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To: DelphiUser
You are stating as “fact” that there was a conspiracy, cover-up, and that Dan(9698) is involved in it.

I didn't even know John D. Lee, so I couldn't have been in a consperacy.

192 posted on 01/21/2006 12:19:37 PM PST by Dan(9698)
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To: Adam-ondi-Ahman
Here is the stand of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints -

They know well what the stand of the Church is.

They just want to bash Mormons, not learn anything of value.

193 posted on 01/21/2006 12:21:47 PM PST by Dan(9698)
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To: Buggman; Revelation 911; Gamecock; HarleyD; Frumanchu; Alex Murphy; xzins; blue-duncan; ...
Amen.

From the Belgic Confession:

Article 8: The Trinity

In keeping with this truth and Word of God we believe in one God, who is one single essence, in whom there are three persons, really, truly, and eternally distinct according to their incommunicable properties-- namely, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

The Father is the cause, origin, and source of all things, visible as well as invisible.

The Son is the Word, the Wisdom, and the image of the Father.

The Holy Spirit is the eternal power and might, proceeding from the Father and the Son.

Nevertheless, this distinction does not divide God into three, since Scripture teaches us that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit each has his own subsistence distinguished by characteristics-- yet in such a way that these three persons are only one God.

It is evident then that the Father is not the Son and that the Son is not the Father, and that likewise the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son.

Nevertheless, these persons, thus distinct, are neither divided nor fused or mixed together.

For the Father did not take on flesh, nor did the Spirit, but only the Son.

The Father was never without his Son, nor without his Holy Spirit, since all these are equal from eternity, in one and the same essence.

There is neither a first nor a last, for all three are one in truth and power, in goodness and mercy.

Article 9: The Scriptural Witness on the Trinity

All these things we know from the testimonies of Holy Scripture as well as from the effects of the persons, especially from those we feel within ourselves.

The testimonies of the Holy Scriptures, which teach us to believe in this Holy Trinity, are written in many places of the Old Testament, which need not be enumerated but only chosen with discretion.

In the book of Genesis God says, "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness." So "God created man in his own image"-- indeed, "male and female he created them."^6 "Behold, man has become like one of us."^7

It appears from this that there is a plurality of persons within the Deity, when he says, "Let us make man in our image"-- and afterwards he indicates the unity when he says, "God created."

It is true that he does not say here how many persons there are-- but what is somewhat obscure to us in the Old Testament is very clear in the New.

For when our Lord was baptized in the Jordan, the voice of the Father was heard saying, "This is my dear Son";^8 the Son was seen in the water; and the Holy Spirit appeared in the form of a dove.

So, in the baptism of all believers this form was prescribed by Christ: "Baptize all people in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."^9

In the Gospel according to Luke the angel Gabriel says to Mary, the mother of our Lord: "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and therefore that holy one to be born of you shall be called the Son of God."^10

And in another place it says: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you."^11

"There are three who bear witness in heaven-- the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit-- and these three are one."^12

In all these passages we are fully taught that there are three persons in the one and only divine essence. And although this doctrine surpasses human understanding, we nevertheless believe it now, through the Word, waiting to know and enjoy it fully in heaven.

Furthermore, we must note the particular works and activities of these three persons in relation to us. The Father is called our Creator, by reason of his power. The Son is our Savior and Redeemer, by his blood. The Holy Spirit is our Sanctifier, by his living in our hearts.

This doctrine of the holy Trinity has always been maintained in the true church, from the time of the apostles until the present, against Jews, Muslims, and certain false Christians and heretics, such as Marcion, Mani, Praxeas, Sabellius, Paul of Samosata, Arius, and others like them, who were rightly condemned by the holy fathers.

And so, in this matter we willingly accept the three ecumenical creeds-- the Apostles', Nicene, and Athanasian-- as well as what the ancient fathers decided in agreement with them.

^6 Gen. 1:26-27 ^7 Gen. 3:22 ^8 Matt. 3:17 ^9 Matt. 28:19 ^10 Luke 1:35 ^11 2 Cor. 13:14 ^12 1 John 5:7 (KJV)

194 posted on 01/21/2006 12:23:09 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (an ambassador in bonds)
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To: Buggman
The fact that Yeshua the Messiah, Jesus Christ, is one and the same as the I AM of the burning bush who spoke to Moses is so evident in Scripture that there really shouldn't even be a debate.

I agree completely. It was the pre-mortal Christ that talked to Moses in the burning bush. Jehovah=Jesus Christ.

However, Jesus is a different person from God the Father. For example, in Luke 22:
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Here we see two different "wills" being referenced. If he was God and the Son together, why would he ask himself permission to pass the cup from himself?
195 posted on 01/21/2006 12:27:25 PM PST by Adam-ondi-Ahman
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To: uglybiker

Thanks for the ping - I think you sent it to me. Count me in anytime there is Mason bashing going on. I posted one a few years ago about the Shriners bucket brigade, and was appalled at some of the dumb replies. Best/


196 posted on 01/21/2006 12:32:14 PM PST by oldtimer
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To: Revelation 911

Thanks for the ping. To be perfectly honest, I rarely reply on the 'Mormon' threads anymore. And I rarely post any articles relating to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I got tired of trolls (not you) and the threads being pulled quite frequently. I also get tired of being told what I believe (pulled from anti-Mormon sites.) I get tired of not being considered a Christian, when I believe in Jesus Christ with my whole heart, mind, and soul. And as I have said many times, I will leave it to Jesus Christ at the Judgement Day to judge my heart and my life. That's all I ask.


197 posted on 01/21/2006 1:43:48 PM PST by Utah Girl
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To: Adam-ondi-Ahman; Buggman; Revelation 911; Gamecock; HarleyD; Frumanchu; Alex Murphy; xzins; ...

There is only one God
The first step is to establish how many Gods exist: one! Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6; Gal. 4:8-9

•"I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 45:5).

•“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me," (Isaiah 44:6).

•"I am the Lord, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God, (Isaiah 55:5).

The Trinity

Called God;(FATHER)Phil. 1:2
(SON)John 1:1,14; Col. 2:9
(HOLY SPIRIT)Acts 5:3-4

Creator;(FATHER)Isaiah 64:8
(SON)John 1:3; Col. 1:15-17
(HOLY SPIRIT)Job 33:4, 26:13

Resurrects; (FATHER)1 Thess. 1:10
(SON)John 2:19, 10:17
(HOLY SPIRIT)Rom. 8:11

Indwells;(FATHER)2 Cor. 6:16
(SON)Col. 1:27
(HOLY SPIRIT)John 14:17

Everywhere;(FATHER)1 Kings 8:27
(SON)Matt. 28:20
(HOLY SPIRIT)Psalm 139:7-10

All knowing;(FATHER)1 John 3:20
(SON)John 16:30; 21:17
(HOLY SPIRIT)1 Cor. 2:10-11

Sanctifies;(FATHER)1 Thess. 5:23
(SON)Heb. 2:11
(HOLY SPIRIT)1 Pet. 1:2

Life giver;(FATHER)Gen. 2:7: John 5:21
(SON)John 1:3; 5:21
(HOLY SPIRIT)2 Cor. 3:6,8

Fellowship;(FATHER)1 John 1:3
(SON)1 Cor. 1:9
(HOLY SPIRIT)2 Cor. 13:14; Phil. 2:1

Eternal;(FATHER)Psalm 90:2
(SON)Micah 5:1-2
(HOLY SPIRIT)Rom. 8:11; Heb. 9:14

A Will;(FATHER) Luke 22:42
(SON)Luke 22:42
(HOLY SPIRIT)1 Cor. 12:11

Speaks;(FATHER) Matt. 3:17; Luke 9:25
(SON)Luke 5:20; 7:48
(HOLY SPIRIT)Acts 8:29; 11:12; 13:2

Love;(FATHER)John 3:16
(SON)Eph. 5:25
(HOLY SPIRIT)Rom. 15:30

Searches the heart;(FATHER)Jer. 17:10
(SON)Rev. 2:23
(HOLY SPIRIT)1 Cor. 2:10

We belong to;(FATHER)John 17:9
(SON)John 17:6

Savior;(FATHER)1 Tim. 1:1; 2:3; 4:10
(SON)2 Tim. 1:10; Titus 1:4; 3:6

We serve;(FATHER)Matt. 4:10
(SON)Col. 3:24

Believe in;(FATHER)John 14:1
(SON)John 14:1

Gives joy;(SON)John 15:11
(HOLY SPIRIT)John 14:7

Judges;(FATHER) John 8:50
(SON)John 5:21,30
. . .


Therefore, the doctrine of the Trinity is arrived at by looking at the whole of scripture, not in a single verse. It is the doctrine that there is only one God, not three, and that the one God exists in three persons: Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. An analogy would be time. Time is past, present, and future. But, there are not three times, only one.


198 posted on 01/21/2006 2:00:01 PM PST by blue-duncan
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To: JRochelle

"I found this at http://www.apologeticsindex.org/news1/an010723-05.html.
Theologically, Mormonism is a cult of Christianity. It does not represent historical, biblical Christianity in any way. Based on fantasy, plagiarism, and outright heresy, Mormonism is not the ''restored church of Jesus Christ.'' For one thing, the Mormon ''Jesus'' is incompatible with the historial Jesus as portrayed in the Bible. Hence, Mormons can not legitimately claim to be Christians."

I almost Broke a bone falling of my chair. This is so funny. I laffed and laffed. Is this serious ?"


199 posted on 01/21/2006 2:08:40 PM PST by BlueMoose
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To: blue-duncan
the doctrine of the Trinity

There is no record of this being taught as doctrine before the second Pope, - Pope Constantine, decreed it at the Council about 300 AD.

If it was an accepted doctrine, why did they debate it for so long?

The Pope finally put an end to the debate by a decree that formalized the doctrine, and also the doctrine that the sun revolves around the earth.

200 posted on 01/21/2006 2:19:13 PM PST by Dan(9698)
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