Posted on 01/10/2006 1:49:22 AM PST by nickcarraway
SUSHI DAS discovers what men think about feminism.
'FEMINISM has turned women into selfish, spoiled, spiteful, powerless victims," shrieked the email. "Men are talking, can't you hear it? Marriage rates are down, birthrates are down, men are using women for their pleasure and then leaving them."
If it was only one of a handful of emails I received, I might not have given it much thought. But there were many more. "I do not think it's men or boys that need reforming. I think women are the main instigators of hate against one half of the population," wrote another man.
Then there was this: "I have healthy relationships with women and always have protected sex to avoid entrapment … why should I risk losing everything I own and having my children taken away from me?"
And this: "The modern guy is not looking for the 'services' past generations did, they often just want a nice person to share their life with, rather than someone who is going to be climbing corporate ladders, getting pregnant when she chooses and then assuming complete control of a child's life. That is not to say they are not supportive of women's careers and goals."
The emails were a response to a challenge I posed to men on this page a couple of weeks ago. Specifically, I asked them to engage in debates relating to "feminist issues" and show they understood that equality, women's rights, the work/life imbalance, the declining birthrate, sexual politics and relationships generally are important to everybody, not just women.
I received, a tsunami of emails. Many were considered arguments. A significant number were the bitter outpourings of men hurt by women. Some elucidated the frustrations of men who couldn't find Ms Right. Sadly, many were simply vitriolic or abusive.
In the hundreds of emails, anger appeared to be the underlying emotion because the writers believed the pendulum had swung too far in favour of women. There were some common threads: men were angry that women's needs took priority over theirs; they felt men constituted the majority of the unemployed, the homeless, the victims of industrial accidents and suicides, that men's health received less funding than women's, and that boys' education was poor. In relationships, they felt some women were "not very nice to men" and were often too selfish to consider their needs. These concerns are real,
but how many can really be blamed on feminism?
Essentially, men raised three broad concerns over why they did not engage in the debate on feminist issues. First, they were scared of being howled down by aggressive feminists who dismissed their views. Second, they felt they were victims too, but women didn't listen to them. Third, they were confused about what women really wanted and what constituted appropriate behaviour.
On the first issue, I agree, some women are dismissive of men's views simply because they are men. Men who speak out, wrote one man, are "smashed upon the rocks of indignation" and this made it "a very, very scary debate to engage with". Another said: "Opting out of an argument in which we cannot hope to be allowed an equal voice let alone a fair outcome is a perfectly rational response."
My response? Get over it. If you're a man and you have an opinion, speak out. Put your case. It will stand or fall on its merit. Stop being scared. There are plenty of women willing to listen. And if you get howled down, get up and say it again. That's how women got their voices heard in the 1970s.
On the issue of men as victims, some argued women too are violent, that men have few rights on abortion, that female teachers get off more lightly when they sexually abuse male students, that men are vilified as pedophiles, that affirmative action is discriminatory, that women frequently win the custody battle. Clearly these concerns require attention. Perhaps it is governments that are not listening to men, rather than women.
Finally, some men were unsure of their role in society. This is complex, and women must recognise this. But men should also let common decency be their guide to appropriate behaviour. Being a decent human being shouldn't be that hard.
Equality is a prerequisite for development. When the shouting from our respective corners is over, perhaps resentment from both sides will melt.
Many emails I received were a cry from the heart from men. But it's not just about women listening to their words, it's about men taking action to improve their own lives. This means speaking out, whatever the consequences — engaging in the debate on equality or feminism or whatever it is called these days.
With that in mind, I'll leave the last words to a man: "Damned if we do, damned if we don't. We need to speak though. We do not want our daughters growing up stunted by arguments or situations that could have been campaigned away. Equally, our sons require education. But how do we do this with integrity? That's the challenge for all involved."
OR help them say it.
And we all know stereotypes do not come out of nowhere.
Well, maybe not, but many of them do come from the mind of the beholder, rather than anything having to do with the stereotypee.
Definition: "A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image".
See reply #240.
Contrary to popular belief, chauvinism is still alive and well in the U.S. - both the old version and the new. And I say this as a person who is deeply opposed to modern day feminism.
And rightly so.
Oddly enough, even with a firewall, I have been knocked off the net seven times this evening while attempting to participate on this thread.
How many would be left at the price of a dinner? : )
I guess that would depend on the menu...
:-}
I agree about the stereotyping that goes on. Even just the sterotyping of engineers that was going on earlier. I'm an engineer and so is my husband. Yes, engineers are typically good at math and science, but after that the engineers that I know are all fairly different.
Same with men and women. Some men are chauvanist jerks, some are sweethearts. Some women are shrill, anti-family, witches, and some are lovely, kind, sweethearts.
I especially love it when men complain about the types of women they meet at bars. Of course, those women are not the best. If you want to meet a nice family oriented, conservative woman, go to church (or synagogue). If you want to meet someone that pysically takes care of themselves, join a fitness club.
The other thing that really makes me mad about single men and women is that they don't want their married friends to fix them up. Well, the married friends may know some nice single people. It doesn't hurt to go on some blind dates. It's better than meeting someone at a bar.
jerk.
Now in fairness, an engineer started all the stereotyping about engineers. I was rather clueless about the whole thing.
I did see part of it, and though I know others liked it, I didn't like it as much. I think I'm set on the original, particularly Laura and Pa.
I was wondering if HairOfTheDog had gone through a sex change after reading your earlier post stating you were a woman! I was thinking "dang, this dude gets fully in character when he debates."
Glad you cleared that up.
LOL - Nope - always been a she :~D
Could be, could be.
Traditional men of today don't want women who are weak and (what most people think of as) submissive either
First I guess I should define submissive. You've seen the movie "Coming to America"? Most people think of submissive as "hop on one leg and bark like a baboon". That is not submissive. That is psychotic.
A submissive woman is one who realizes that her husband is the head of the house and that he answers to God for everything that happens in his household. She realizes that he can't do that entirely on his own and that he need wise counsel in order to do things right. She realizes that her input is vitally important to him because they have to be in unity in order to properly answer the call of God on their life (God never calls a husband by himself. God sees us as one flesh.) That being said, she also realizes that when it comes right down to it her husband has to make the final decision because he's the one responsible for the results.
Now a wise husband will always take his wife's input into account and will usually decide things in a manner that is pleasing, or at least acceptable to both. Sometimes he'll decide her way, sometimes his way and sometimes neither. A wise wife will argue her position until she is certain that her husband understands her and then she will let it go and let him decide. She will support him in that decision (right or wrong he's still her husband) and will refrain from saying "I told you so" on those occasions where things blow up in his face.
Before I met my wife I dated a "hop on one leg" sort of girl. Pretty fun for about three dates then it was utter torture until I was able to graciously extricate myself from that mess.
My wife (when she was healthy) was the strongest women I've ever met. She was fiesty, stubborn, intelligent, and could argue with the best of them. But she knew when the argument was over that the responsibility for the decision rested on my shoulders. I was truly a blessed man.
So now I'm looking for another strong, fiesty, stubborn, intelligent and submissive woman (who wants kids). I know she's out there. I just have to wait on God to bring us together
When we met? I was 26. Why do you ask? For the record, she's almost 4 years older than I am. Hardly what I'd call a significant age difference.
Fortunately I live in small town America and already have my network of church ladies on the lookout for me. Getting scouting reports from half the country. Church ladies are alwasy better matchmakers than the 'professional' services. For one thing they pray about it a lot more and for another they know what people are really like.
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