Posted on 01/10/2006 1:49:22 AM PST by nickcarraway
SUSHI DAS discovers what men think about feminism.
'FEMINISM has turned women into selfish, spoiled, spiteful, powerless victims," shrieked the email. "Men are talking, can't you hear it? Marriage rates are down, birthrates are down, men are using women for their pleasure and then leaving them."
If it was only one of a handful of emails I received, I might not have given it much thought. But there were many more. "I do not think it's men or boys that need reforming. I think women are the main instigators of hate against one half of the population," wrote another man.
Then there was this: "I have healthy relationships with women and always have protected sex to avoid entrapment … why should I risk losing everything I own and having my children taken away from me?"
And this: "The modern guy is not looking for the 'services' past generations did, they often just want a nice person to share their life with, rather than someone who is going to be climbing corporate ladders, getting pregnant when she chooses and then assuming complete control of a child's life. That is not to say they are not supportive of women's careers and goals."
The emails were a response to a challenge I posed to men on this page a couple of weeks ago. Specifically, I asked them to engage in debates relating to "feminist issues" and show they understood that equality, women's rights, the work/life imbalance, the declining birthrate, sexual politics and relationships generally are important to everybody, not just women.
I received, a tsunami of emails. Many were considered arguments. A significant number were the bitter outpourings of men hurt by women. Some elucidated the frustrations of men who couldn't find Ms Right. Sadly, many were simply vitriolic or abusive.
In the hundreds of emails, anger appeared to be the underlying emotion because the writers believed the pendulum had swung too far in favour of women. There were some common threads: men were angry that women's needs took priority over theirs; they felt men constituted the majority of the unemployed, the homeless, the victims of industrial accidents and suicides, that men's health received less funding than women's, and that boys' education was poor. In relationships, they felt some women were "not very nice to men" and were often too selfish to consider their needs. These concerns are real,
but how many can really be blamed on feminism?
Essentially, men raised three broad concerns over why they did not engage in the debate on feminist issues. First, they were scared of being howled down by aggressive feminists who dismissed their views. Second, they felt they were victims too, but women didn't listen to them. Third, they were confused about what women really wanted and what constituted appropriate behaviour.
On the first issue, I agree, some women are dismissive of men's views simply because they are men. Men who speak out, wrote one man, are "smashed upon the rocks of indignation" and this made it "a very, very scary debate to engage with". Another said: "Opting out of an argument in which we cannot hope to be allowed an equal voice let alone a fair outcome is a perfectly rational response."
My response? Get over it. If you're a man and you have an opinion, speak out. Put your case. It will stand or fall on its merit. Stop being scared. There are plenty of women willing to listen. And if you get howled down, get up and say it again. That's how women got their voices heard in the 1970s.
On the issue of men as victims, some argued women too are violent, that men have few rights on abortion, that female teachers get off more lightly when they sexually abuse male students, that men are vilified as pedophiles, that affirmative action is discriminatory, that women frequently win the custody battle. Clearly these concerns require attention. Perhaps it is governments that are not listening to men, rather than women.
Finally, some men were unsure of their role in society. This is complex, and women must recognise this. But men should also let common decency be their guide to appropriate behaviour. Being a decent human being shouldn't be that hard.
Equality is a prerequisite for development. When the shouting from our respective corners is over, perhaps resentment from both sides will melt.
Many emails I received were a cry from the heart from men. But it's not just about women listening to their words, it's about men taking action to improve their own lives. This means speaking out, whatever the consequences — engaging in the debate on equality or feminism or whatever it is called these days.
With that in mind, I'll leave the last words to a man: "Damned if we do, damned if we don't. We need to speak though. We do not want our daughters growing up stunted by arguments or situations that could have been campaigned away. Equally, our sons require education. But how do we do this with integrity? That's the challenge for all involved."
"Both have kept themselves in shape and are attractive. As a man, it was the outward appearance of both of these women that initially attracted me. Both of them were seeking someone who made them feel secure and outward appearance meant little to them..."
You care more about their looks than they do themselves? Huh?
Those countries were listed in the Original Post, I simply quoted them.
Did you read the original post?
If so you already knew that.
Utter and complete bovine excrement. Comparing women in general to Anna Nicole smith is like comparing the average American male to Woody Allen. No resemblence to be found anywhere.
Everyone wants a good looking partner, even women. That hardly makes you unique in any way. The first thing I noticed about my wife all those years ago was just how long the legs of a 6' woman look in a miniskirt. Luckily, there was more to her than that. If she worked at Sonic, she would have no doubt bored me after the first week. Not all men are that shallow.
Call me a hater or basher, but a slim figure and attractive face is what does it for me. I don't care if she flips burgers at Sonic. If a woman has doubled her body weight since her 20th birthday, cut her hair shorter than mine and has a uni-brow, I simply do not wish to engage in an intimate relationship with her.
We get it. You like pretty women to the exclusion of all other qualities.
Because of that, I am an objectifying pig. OK, fine. Blame your lack of personal self control and lack of femininity on me all you want...but it still wont get you a date.
Now, you started this off by thanking the creator that these women ignored your looks. Should we take it from that you lack personal self-control? Or is this construct between beauty and self-control exclusive to the feminine gender?
Ok, you hooked me. Now I have to ask: Why do engineers make lousy boyfriend but great husbands? And...Is is possible to be a great boyfriend and a great husband? I like to think I pulled it off. My wife told me when we met that I was the most exciting man she ever met, and I still get like comments from her and others to this day.
You quoted them as if to support them as examples of "traditional societies" men are seeking brides from. If you don't want a bride from those countries, you should have been more clear. You've had the opportunity to clarify, but you're instead blaming me. Sheeesh.
Well, when you're willing to settle for someone who's intellectually fit for flipping burgers, you get someone who's intellectually fit for flipping burgers. Methinks my fellow Texan probably landed a girl in Anna Nicole's league.
As long as he's in the shape to keep up I don't see aproblem with it. Of course I'm 45 now and still working on more kids so I'm biased.
I have no idea where that came from. I wanted children, and 17 days before our first anniversery my wife gave birth to my son. Some 18 months later, my daughter was born. Plus, my wife had a 12 year old daughter and a 10 year old son when we married. I've had all the children that I can handle.
Wonderful. Your wife was 30 when you married and about 33 when the last child was born? well within the normal 35 year old limit to childbearing years. Kind of proves my point though. If you had waited a few more years it would have been much harder to have kids and at much greater risk.
I think you exagerate the attractiveness of 40 year old men in the eyes of 20 something females. While it might be slightly more common than the converse, age spreads over a decade are far from common. As a 42 year old male, I'm acutely aware that to 20 somethings I'm well into geezer-land.
I was being somewhat facetious to make the point. I realize that to a 20 year old I'm a geezer. But I know that God has someone out there for me in the 25-35 age range who wants kids. (Ideal range being 28 to 32). I've always heard that you should get them young and raise them how you want them. :^)
That's when you know you're really good with women. When a woman is willing to dump a much better financial prospect than you, because you've got the mojo, that's just a golden moment.
Sorry dear, not blaming you, just being argumentative :)
Yes they are traditional societies, but not societies that I would marry from or into.
Now, traditional to me would be a Country girl from an old Southern Family with good moral roots and a strong church background.
Than you God! Now I know that I'm not the only one who thinks that Ann is way too damned mean. She reminds me a lot of a venomous snake with a typewriter.
She's not a puppy John.
Wow, that was succinct, accurate, and complete! That might be the best post I read all month.
She's like nails on a chalkboard. :~D
I'm not sure how that relates to my post at all. I've had remarkable success with women my whole life, and I know that I probably don't live up to a single item on the perfect mate list.
"Just because a man can biologically father a child in old age doesn't mean he should."
"As long as he's in the shape to keep up I don't see aproblem with it."
Weeeellll.... gotta watch out for (excuse the expression) stale sperm.... there have certainly been enough articles published that point to the quality of older fathers' biological "contributions" to birth defects.
Because a major part of the boyfriend's job is to be shown off like a Ken doll to the girlfriends and parents.
Engineers just suck at that part. ;)
Wait till he sees what happens the first time he raps one on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper!
If you've had remarkable success with women your whole life, I bet you've got a few items on the "perfect mate list", not least of which is humility (which, by it's nature, keeps you from seeing yourself as any of the other perfect qualities).
Maybe the ideal man is the guy who doesn't use "I'm the ideal man" as his sales pitch :~D
That was a blessing in my life. Girlfriends usually put off introducing me to their parents for as long as possible. There were times that it just rocked being a biker.
Straight from the stereotypes here. Engineers tend to be more pragmatic and less exciting. Using myself as an example. I'd much rather spend the evening at home then go out. I never saw the purpose of the bar scene. I don't follow the latest fads etc (never did). I don't dance (other than polka and waltz). You may say that in some ways I was boring (during college years that is). So, poor boyfriend material, stereotypically.
Engineers make great husbands as we are rock solid steady. Don't go off on flights of fancy all that much. We make good money. We can fix almost anything that goes wrong in the house (and those things we can't fix we know enough about to make sure the repair man doesn't rip us off). We are the ultimate in dependable and loyal. Mid life crisis? Maybe a new computer or siding for the house (in a wild and unpredictable color like cream or light blue!). Again stereotypically we are great husbands.
The one flaw we have as husbands is we are very poor at listening to problems. We will solve them in the blink of an eye but we have to restrain ourselves to let our wives vent about it completely before we fix it. Fortunately most of us are smart enough to realize this.
Can we be good at both? I'd like to think so but it takes a special girl to appreciate us. Most of the party animal type girls wouldn't give us a second glance (too boring). I Think I was a great boyfriend to my wife, At least she went out with me again. (and I'm not quite as geeky as most engineers). I know I was a great husband to her.
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