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Evolution's Thermodynamic Failure
The American Spectator ^ | December 28, 2005 | Granville Sewell

Posted on 12/28/2005 3:01:53 PM PST by johnnyb_61820

... the idea that the four fundamental forces of physics alone could rearrange the fundamental particles of nature into spaceships, nuclear power plants, and computers, connected to laser printers, CRTs, keyboards and the Internet, appears to violate the second law of thermodynamics in a spectacular way.

Anyone who has made such an argument is familiar with the standard reply: the Earth is an open system, it receives energy from the sun, and order can increase in an open system, as long as it is "compensated" somehow by a comparable or greater decrease outside the system. S. Angrist and L. Hepler, for example, in "Order and Chaos", write, "In a certain sense the development of civilization may appear contradictory to the second law.... Even though society can effect local reductions in entropy, the general and universal trend of entropy increase easily swamps the anomalous but important efforts of civilized man. Each localized, man-made or machine-made entropy decrease is accompanied by a greater increase in entropy of the surroundings, thereby maintaining the required increase in total entropy."

According to this reasoning, then, the second law does not prevent scrap metal from reorganizing itself into a computer in one room, as long as two computers in the next room are rusting into scrap metal -- and the door is open. In Appendix D of my new book, The Numerical Solution of Ordinary and Partial Differential Equations, second edition, I take a closer look at the equation for entropy change, which applies not only to thermal entropy but also to the entropy associated with anything else that diffuses, and show that it does not simply say that order cannot increase in a closed system. It also says that in an open system, order cannot increase faster than it is imported through the boundary. ...

(Excerpt) Read more at spectator.org ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: creation; crevolist; evolution; intelligentdesign; law; mathematics; physics; scientificidiocy; thermodynamics; twaddle
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To: Elsie

National Geographic has never been a scientific journal. It is a magazine. It publishes news articles about science.


781 posted on 12/30/2005 4:22:30 AM PST by bobdsmith
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To: bobdsmith
The pattern of them across species fits common descent which would be against high odds if common descent was not true.

Looking at the same data, we C's say that indicates a common Creator.

782 posted on 12/30/2005 4:23:07 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Elsie
This is an assumption, based on what you THINK happened.

Would it therefore also be true that the idea of all races of humans sharing a common ancestor is also based on assumption? Afterall an asian has never been born to two africans.

Where is our CLOSEST animal critter? why can we not BREED with them?

I don't see why we should be able to breed with them if they are indeed our evolutionary cousin.

783 posted on 12/30/2005 4:25:26 AM PST by bobdsmith
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To: Elsie
Looking at the same data, we C's say that indicates a common Creator.

ERVs are not a design feature though. They are caused by viral insertions. Viruses are not creators. There is no reason why their distribution should fit the nested heirarchy it does if common descent was not actually true.

784 posted on 12/30/2005 4:27:30 AM PST by bobdsmith
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To: connectthedots
I said directly verify
785 posted on 12/30/2005 4:30:29 AM PST by bobdsmith
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To: b_sharp
The transition in fossils in a number of lines, including those of the cetartiodactyls, show much more than just 'possible' connections. If those fossils just showed one or two transitional features, there would be room for doubt. In the case of whales, we have a continuous line of fossils that show 1) an elongation of the head, 2) movement of the head/neck joint from the lower rear to rear position, 3) movement of the nostrils from the front of the snout to the top of the head, 4) change in the ear from above water use to below water use, 5) change in leg length from long to short in the front, and gone in the back, 6) change in back leg/pelvis connection from connected to unconnected, 7) change in spine from rigid to flexible. There are a few more shared features that I won't bother to list, I think this is enough for a start.

But what CAUSED these things to occur?

Using the Schroedinger's cat illustration, these critters either lived in the water or they didn't, as being equally efficient on both is illogical.

Anyone who came across these, who had no preconceived ideas about them would say they were all different creatures an none gave rise to the other.

786 posted on 12/30/2005 4:33:25 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Virginia-American

Examples of what we got NOW.

From where did they come?


787 posted on 12/30/2005 4:40:40 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: tortoise
Which is why I do not get my real work done...

;^)

788 posted on 12/30/2005 4:42:20 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: bobdsmith
National Geographic has never been a scientific journal

I'm sure they'd be offended or at least miffed.

Why... just LOOK at all the scientific endevours they've sponsored.

789 posted on 12/30/2005 4:47:05 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: bobdsmith
I don't see why we should be able to breed with them if they are indeed our evolutionary cousin.

Then, according to the predictive quality of the ToE, what is the mechanism that shuts off the breeding abilities between cousins?

790 posted on 12/30/2005 4:48:43 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Elsie

Breakfast time!


791 posted on 12/30/2005 4:49:31 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: XEHRpa
Exhausting exchange of the human thought, I believe in the obvious not the extreme, science gives a high level of detail that can only be countered by an equal level of knowledge. But science will always have a carrot dangled in front of there nose. The word is infinity weather we are looking with microscope or with a telescope we will never find the end. The obvious is as intelligent human beings look in the eyes of your beautiful child or gods creation around us. Proof is in the soul, not the anger brought to this exchange of thought. For those who have more knowledge in science than I, remember we are only one long power outage from the beginning of creation. Could you survive on your own. would your education save you. Bod Bless.
792 posted on 12/30/2005 5:13:11 AM PST by logcabinman
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To: Elsie
Then, according to the predictive quality of the ToE, what is the mechanism that shuts off the breeding abilities between cousins?

Genetic divergance. The fact that two cousin species have diverged from a common ancestor species. Certain genetic differences will mean interbreeding impossible. This is seen in nature where very similar species cannot interbreed, or have some difficulty in interbreeding (lions and tigers for example).

793 posted on 12/30/2005 5:14:18 AM PST by bobdsmith
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To: bobdsmith; Ichneumon
Genetic divergance. The fact that two cousin species have diverged from a common ancestor species. Certain genetic differences will mean interbreeding impossible. This is seen in nature where very similar species cannot interbreed, or have some difficulty in interbreeding (lions and tigers for example).

I always thought that Ichneumon's post 217 on how speciation occurs was a good read when it came to understanding all of this.

794 posted on 12/30/2005 5:52:38 AM PST by hawkaw
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To: b_sharp
When I learned thermodynamics in an Engineering class, at the same time I was learning Statisical Physics in a physics class, and more -- I was learning binomial distributions and statistics in a mathematics class. The three overlapped!

The three laws of thermodynamics were taught in both the engineering and physics classes. If you first approach thermodynamics from the classical engineeing path of rediscovering how to bore out cannons effeciently, I can see why you'd have the (false) complaint of conflation that you do. There's no sense in learning of heats enthalpic, latent, and transfered of the more general fundaments of the mathematics and physical models involved.

Just to note, that like you, I was always bothered by the non-respect for local phenonmenom that the laws of thermo have -- how they impose perfect gases, perfect diffusions, perfect mixing so as to make use of the classical thermodynamic distributions -- Maxwell-Botlzmann, etc..

So I try to work from the old simple physics mindset. Make simple analogies -- such as the fifty pennies. Use those analogies to provide a mental model to consider aspects of the problem.

Here the fifty unsequenced pennies are being used to to show how the laws of *information* thermodynamics develop and what entropy means, what order means. I could *presto* change it into a heat problem by saying that if heads the pennie is in energy state E1, and if tails, E2. There is a complete parallelism to classical thermo in that regard.

795 posted on 12/30/2005 6:07:42 AM PST by bvw
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To: Sunnyflorida
What do you mean by that? ["Just remember - atheism is the religion of materialism." ]

For the most part atheists believe and preach the dogma of materialism.

Why can there not be evolution and ID in the same physical world?

I see no reason why there can't be both evolution and ID because some aspects of evolution have been scientifically supported so if there is anything to ID there must be both - not sure what your point is or how that comment is related to atheism. Atheism is a belief system. There can also be ID without a god (such as seeding from another planet that is the result of pure materialistic means)

796 posted on 12/30/2005 6:33:26 AM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: Elsie
You make it so simple! ;^)

Speaking of simple, gosh, and heck - Gosh, what the heck are you talking about?

797 posted on 12/30/2005 6:36:28 AM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: Elsie
Speaking of simple, gosh, and heck - Gosh, what the heck are you talking about?

Oops, forgot to add the mandatory smiley face

:-)

BTW - after reading your other comments I think I understand what you mean - I thought at first you were dising me...

:-)

798 posted on 12/30/2005 6:41:47 AM PST by Last Visible Dog
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To: Timmy
Well, if you're NOT certified as the smartest living human, would it hurt to conduct your debates with a little humility and courtesy?

I don't have to feign humility in the presence of people who say the earth is flat. The argument from thermodynamics is decided. You don't need to be an expert.

799 posted on 12/30/2005 7:01:43 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: jbloedow
Oh boy. Now you've really done it...

Done what?

800 posted on 12/30/2005 7:06:08 AM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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