[MNJohnnie]

Not to moron hysterics at UnChristian NOT Science Monitor. Comparing a mature developed economic like the US to a developing economy like China is an intellectually infantile exercise. It is merely an attempt by liars to knowingly use misleading factoids to misrepresent reality. In short. A LIE.

[jveritas]

And all the engineers in the world will do anything to come and work and live in the US. Why? Because of the best technology, best research, best pay, and best standards of living.

[Perdogg]

I'm an engineer (PE) and I'm okay, I work all night and I work all day. ;)

[OldPossum]

I just skimmed the article and didn't see this issue there but it seems to me that I have read recent articles in which U.S. engineering work has been transferred abroad. If this is a real trend, then why would Americans be interested in training for a job that is just going to be outsourced abroad? Makes no sense to me.

[Paul Ross]

For its part, the National Academies stands by its report, even after its revisions. "I don't think we believe at all that these new numbers change the ultimate recommendations we have," says Deborah Stine, of the National Academies. "The US is well behind other countries."

Seems a straightforward conclusion. Even if we are current, and maintaining an adequate balance today...we could be looking at a demographic Graying problem...i.e., an implosion of domestic...and loyal U.S.... talent when that bulge of residual engineers and scientists retire.

[Brilliant]

Stop subsidizing the education of lawyers, business majors, political science majors, and psychology majors.

[RightWhale]

True, China and India each graduate more engineers by far than the US. They are also beginning to catch up in patents for new inventions. It is just a matter of time. But, the other side of the coin says that there is no shortage of engineers and scientists in the US. Many graduates of science or engineering programs do something else for a living: the real money is elsewhere.

[generally]

Several things worth mentioning.

1. Quantity is not the same as quality. I'd certainly like to see more engineer and scientists in the US, but until we know the skill relative skill levels, comparing numbers doesn't show the whole picture. One advantage that we have here, IMO, is that our engineers are generally more innovative and creative. I think that's because our culture encourages it much more than the Chinese culture where students are encouraged to conform.

2. That said, I fear that the general quality of eng/sci grads here may be slipping. The reason is that many of our best and brightest are smart enough to look at the job market and see that a career in engineering or science tops out pretty quickly. The big money is made by the MBA's who exploit the engineers and the lawyers who sue them.

[river rat]

Nancy Pelosi --- "They are investing heavily in improving their educational systems, and creating world-class universities, particularly in science and technology."

Another "gem" of genius from this stupid congress critter.

1. We have already made the investment, and developed the best University system in the world......and it attracted the best and brightest technical folks from all over the world...

2. We are slowly destroying our University system, by turning it over to the lunatic left to administer..

3. From my 37 year career with a major HIGH technology corporation --- I'm was not impressed with the ability of "engineers" from either India or China... I'm certain with time - they will improve.

4. The best way to encourage our own youth to go into Engineering, is to convince them there will be a NEED for their services and the income will justify the effort..

Semper Fi

[Lessismore]

Framing the Engineering Outsourcing Debate:
Placing the United States on a Level Playing Field with China and India

Faculty Leaders:
Dr.Gary Gereffi
Vivek Wadhwa

Primary Student Researchers:
Ben Rissing,Kiran Kalakuntla,
Soomi Cheong,Qi Weng,
Nishanth Lingamneni

www.soc.duke.edu/resources/public_sociology/duke_outsourcing.pdf

The number of graduates is rising rapidly in China. With their estimates for 4-year Bachelor's of 137,437 for the US and 351,537 for China in 2004, there does not seem to be a cause for complacency. While a lack of English language skills may mean that the Chinese engineers can't be used for outsourcing directly, they can be effectively used in China under a cadre of US-trained engineers and managers.

India appears to be strong only in computer science and information technology, not in other engineering areas.

Lastly, a lot of their argument hinges on Indian and Chinese 3-year degrees being equivalent to our associates degrees from community colleges and technical schools. I'm not so sure, since the level of mathematics and science education in secondary schools in India and China is likely to be the equivalent of a full year ahead of the US.

[rasblue]

Speaking as an electrical engineer, IMHO its a societal thing. American society values occupations that manage and redistribute wealth but not those who create wealth. Lawyers, and brokers are deitified but engineers, designers, and the trades are seen as "geeky."

Its mainly an Anglosphere thing. US, Canada, Australia, UK, NZ. For instance lawyers just do not have that much status in the rest of the world. There are 1,000,000 lawyers in the US which is about 70% of the worlds supply for a nation with about 25% of the worlds economy.

Germany and Japan are the opposite. Engineering and design are the elite jobs there and it shows. BMW and Sony anyone? Siemens and Matsushima?
China and India also value design and engineering and it shows.

There is one thing that will keep the US on top. Creativity. We are the most creative in the world.

You reap what you sow.

[Professional Engineer]

bookmark

[Small-L]

I can only comment from my limited personal experience. Four years ago, my company was working with the Pulp and Paper Department of a major southern state university--a kind of two way exchange, we gave them equipment and software, they did some minor research for us. During that exchange, I noticed that many of the graduate students were oriental. At the Industry Day luncheon, I commented on this to the University's Director of Development. His reply was nothing less than shocking.

It seems that ALL of the graduate students in that department were Chinese--not a single American--not even a Chinese student with an American citizenship. Every single graduate student was a Chinese alien with a student visa. Not surprisingly, even the department chair was Chinese.

Let me make this as clear as I can. This is a major state university funded by the taxpayers, in a region of the country that is heavily dependent on the pulp and paper industry. And EVERY graduate student (about 25) in that department were Chinese. Since the department can only handle a limited number of graduate students, some number of American applicants (albeit less qualified) had to have been turned away in order to admit these foreign students.

When I inquired as to the reason, his answer was simple, "because they pay full fare." It seems that many/most American graduate students need tuition assistance, teaching assistantships, and/or government loans. In contrast, the Chinese students are sent here by and funded by the Chinese government, and pay "full fare." It's simply a matter of profit and loss--the University makes more money educating alien Chinese students than American students.

I don't have the data to make an informed judgment about our relative numbers, but if we are falling behind, I tend to believe that it is primarily because of the policies of our own government (state and federal). Let there be no mistake, we are in economic competition with China, India, and the EU. And many of our state-sponsored universities are educating the competition.

[moog]

No wonder I haven't seen so many trains lately.

[KarinG1]

There are different kinds of engineers. I was certified as a combat engineer after only twelve weeks of training in the Army, but it took me five years to earn an M.E.E. I suspect that some of those foreign "engineers" don't know Jack.

[Casloy]

As someone who recruits engineers I can categorically state there is no lack of jobs for engineers in the US. Competition to recruit good engineers is fierce.

[AmishDude]

As a math prof, believe me, we have too damned many engineers.

[A CA Guy]

Most Chinese live in an area the size of a small home's closet.
I'm sure their engineers overall are just as impressive.

If anything, they will offer those graduates to us to use so they can steal and sabotage all they can on our soil rather than develop their own stuff.

Took Clinton giving them rocket and missile guidance technology for them to be able to nuke us now, so why would they not look for other such opportunities?

[Arjun]

Its a wrong assumption to think that someone with a 3 year diploma is inferior to someone with a 4 year degree. The economy in that part of the world is different. People with 3 year degrees do the same job as people with 4 year degrees.
The article also fails to mention that many of the engineering schools have high foreign student enrollment and so those folks get counted as part of the degrees awarded in the US but they will more likely go back to China or wherever they came from. So those are not really American degrees.

[LibKill]

Erm, most of the engineering students at the small Texas university that I work at are from India.

The USA students are every bit as good and sometimes better than these Indians, but the Indians are the majority.

Fortunately, most of these Indian students want to stay here. So we are "brain draining" India.

I wish I could do the math and be an engineer. I also wish for hair on my bald head and a green sky. :)