'Intelligent Design' Wins In Kansas

CBS News ^ | 10 November 2005

[Aussie Dasher]

(AP) Revisiting a topic that exposed Kansas to nationwide ridicule six years ago, the state Board of Education approved science standards for public schools Tuesday that cast doubt on the theory of evolution.

The board's 6-4 vote, expected for months, was a victory for intelligent design advocates who helped draft the standards. Intelligent design holds that the universe is so complex that it must have been created by a higher power.

Critics of the proposed language charged that it was an attempt to inject creationism into public schools in violation of the separation between church and state.

The board's vote is likely to heap fresh national criticism on Kansas and cause many scientists to see the state as backward. Current state standards treat evolution as well-established — a view also held by national science groups

[This Just In]

Ah, I understand your motivation, Mr. js1138.

In the interest of fair minded discussion, I would ask that you go to post 111 and click onto the link provided.

After carefully reading the article, perhaps several times, I am curious as to your impressions.

Thank you.

[ARCADIA]

The basic gist of argument is based on probability theory which is respectful science.

I can respect the thought. However, it is virtually impossible to demonstrate a negative. How do you know that you have accounted for all of the possible permutations that would drive the sum of all genetic mutation through 100s of millions of years of evolution. Can you use the same theory to prove that it was impossible for a hurricane to have formed off the Eastern coast of the North American Continent on July 21st of the year 515AD? Resolving the weather question would be child's play compared to what you would purport to demonstrate.

Statistical theory is a tool which attempts to describe certain aspects of a mass of data, based on sampling techniques. Whether it is accepted science or not has no more bearing on ID, then the use of a calculator. Where is the hypothesis, the data, and the peer reviewed experiments demonstrating the predictive qualities of the theory?

[js1138]

I already responded in #115.

"A Case Study in Creationists' Willingness to Admit their Errors"

[aft_lizard]

Ice Age is an unknown quantity, as for the bubonic plague at best count it only killed 2 million people a year allowing for worldwide births to counteract its effects.

[This Just In]

"A(meant "I") await your single sentence retort, absent of any ounce of knowledge or understanding of those topics which I previously mentioned."


My hats off to those of you, unlike Senator Bedfellow, who wish to engage in sincere discussion involving research conducted by both the ID and the Evolution camps.

Sometimes knowledge can be scary to some, especially when it may present some challenging arguments against what beliefs they so staunchly cling to.


It has been a pleasure, but responsibility calls.

I will try to reply at a later date.

Good night.

[Coyoteman]

Coyoteman, I commend you for making an effort, and your conclusions are understandable based on what you've read.

Now grant me the same. I'm interested in your impressions after reading this article regarding "Lucy":

http://www.icr.org/index.php?module=articles&action=view&ID=1072

OK, fair enough. I checked out the web link you provided. But you have me at a disadvantage--its been 30 years since I studied fossil man. I can go to the web, as most folks on these threads do, and cut-and-paste from there, but I prefer to at a minimum know what it is I am cutting, and to be able to verify its accuracy. So, judicious cut-and paste as I don't have time tonight to dig out all of the books:

The consensus is on the basis of physical similarities, that Lucy was an ancestor of Homo sapiens, or a close relative of an ancestor. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mom/momevol.html

The pelvis does look, to me, like it should. It does not even remotely resemble a chimp, for example. I taught a Physical Anthropology class lo these many years ago and had casts of human, chimp, and Australopithecus innominates (half of the pelvis) for teaching aids. They looked just as the drawings in this link: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/pelvis.html

When asked to separate the three innominates into two groups, all of the students (with no coaching) grouped human and Australopithecus together, and chimp as different. Lucy's pelvis fits right in with Australopithecus.

I handled most of the major casts of fossil man which were available in the early 1970s, and there is a lot of evidence for evolution out there!

I don't have time to go through it all, but those who simply dismiss it all as "wishful thinking" are clearly not familiar with the data. They have a goal in mind, and it is to destroy evolution in favor of their personal beliefs--and to get those beliefs into the schools. I simply cannot agree with that.

Will be away from the computer for several days--in the field! Will try to address any questions I can when I return.

[gondramB]

"So when do we schedule the next Scopes monkey trial?"



Mental note - no point in hiring anyone from Kansas for any sort of technical position for the next 20 years.

[This Just In]

Actually, it does not involve the same article. You are interested in fair mindedness and discussion.

[Raycpa]

You think then statistics isn't a valuable tool in regards to evolution?

[Coyoteman]

Do you have a problem discussing probabilities of evolution ?

Or are you afraid such questions would undermine evolution too much?

I'm not a statistician, so I wouldn't mean much either way for me to discuss it. Check with some of the other folks here.

[Michael_Michaelangelo]

Judging by the results, whomever it was should be stripped of their license.

Why do you say that?

[Michael_Michaelangelo]

By whom?

Very funny. :)

[Raycpa]

It is my understanding its used by evolution quite regularly.

I don't understand why its objectionable to extrapolate, even if all the variables are unknown. Science math is often applied when all variables are unknown and can still lead to answers or ranges of answers.

[gondramB]

"If the supporters of iIntelligent design can just remind people that Einstein believed in intelligent design."


I believe in it. But like Einstien I would never suggest it be taught without aupporting evidence.

[Coyoteman]

It is my understanding its used by evolution quite regularly.

I don't understand why its objectionable to extrapolate, even if all the variables are unknown. Science math is often applied when all variables are unknown and can still lead to answers or ranges of answers.

Let me repeat my reply:

I'm not a statistician, so it wouldn't mean much either way for me to discuss it. Check with some of the other folks here.

I am sure statistics are used regularly in evolution and most other sciences, but not by me. Why do you wish to lure me into debate on something I know little about?

I prefer to discuss what I can be reasonably sure of, and when I don't know something I won't try to bluff my way through.

See you all in a few days--the field beckons.

[Raycpa]

You seem to be well versed in intelligent design because you have opinion that its not science.

My question is that seeing that ID is mostly based on applying statistics why you are against applying stats to evolution. It is a usefull tool in all sorts of systems. It should be useful in evolution too, except that some see that the stats imply that evolution can only occur if some outside factor is involved.

[Torie]

As a policy matter, I can understand why Dorothy left Kansas. Are these folks elected officials? If so, they might consider burnishing their resumes.

[js1138]

My question is that seeing that ID is mostly based on applying statistics why you are against applying stats to evolution.

It doesn't make any sense to calculate the probability of something that has already happened.

[Raycpa]

Tell that to stock analysts. Tell that to medical researchers.

I think your statement is foolish. Statistical probability is a valid science and it can and is applied to both historical events and future events.