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Scientists Back Dover - [85 scientists request scientists, not Judges, to define "science"]
York Daily Record ^ | 5 Oct 2005 | York Daily Record

Posted on 10/17/2005 5:36:09 PM PDT by gobucks

An international group of scientists have filed a "friend of the court" brief with federal Judge John E. Jones III advising him that "the identification of intelligent causes is a well-established scientific practice" and asking him to allow "the freedom of scientists to pursue scientific evidence wherever it may lead."

Jones is presiding over the Dover intelligent design trial.

The 24-page brief — carrying the names of 85 scientists in fields including chemistry, molecular biology, mathematics, neurological surgery and environmental science — states "the definition of science and the boundaries of science should be left to scientists to debate."

"Any (court) ruling that depends upon an outdated or inaccurate definition of science or which attempts to define the boundaries of science could hinder scientific progress," the brief states in asking Jones to find in favor of the Dover Area School Board.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News
KEYWORDS: arrogantscietists; badscience; crevolist; darwin; dover; evolutiontheory; intelligentdesign; junkscience; theory; theoryofevolution
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To: gobucks
a scientist who is a fellow at the Discovery Institute

I bet you wouldn't recognize an oxymoron if it bit you on the rear.

61 posted on 10/18/2005 1:41:59 AM PDT by shuckmaster (Bring back SeaLion and ModernMan!)
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To: Coyoteman

Judges went to college - why assume they don't know science?


62 posted on 10/18/2005 3:12:53 AM PDT by mlc9852
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The CrevoSci Archive
Just one of the many services of Darwin Central
"The Conspiracy that Cares"

CrevoSci threads for the past week:

  1. 2005-10-17 Cyborg cells sense humidity
  2. 2005-10-17 Ichthyosaur bones found off U.K. coast
  3. 2005-10-17 Intelligent Design is not Science (Kenneth Miller Speaks at Lehigh)
  4. 2005-10-17 Jurassic Bark: Tree Thought Extinct Returned to the World
  5. 2005-10-17 New Planetoid Discovery Sets Off Feud
  6. 2005-10-17 Prof Speaks at 'Intelligent Design' Trial
  7. 2005-10-17 "Scientists Back Dover - [85 scientists request scientists, not Judges, to define ""science""]"
  8. 2005-10-17 Spitzer's Stunning Portrait of Andromeda
  9. 2005-10-17 Supernova Storm Wiped Out Mammoths?
  10. 2005-10-17 University separates itself from professor in Dover intelligent design suit
  11. 2005-10-16 An Open Letter Concerning Religion and Science
  12. 2005-10-16 Bad Frog Beer to 'intelligent design'
  13. 2005-10-16 Evolution debate unchanged over time
  14. 2005-10-16 Grown Man in the Stellar Crib: Now What? (Discoveries require rewriting the Astronomy books)
  15. 2005-10-16 Museums take up evolution challenge
  16. 2005-10-16 "Museums take up evolution challenge (because ""biology classes have faltered"")"
  17. 2005-10-16 Pa. professor [Behe] to testify in landmark case [Dover evolution trial, 16 Oct]
  18. 2005-10-16 The Separation of the Church of Darwin and State
  19. 2005-10-15 God and global warming
  20. 2005-10-15 Tracing the whale’s trail [Evolution trial, daily thread for 15 Oct]
  21. 2005-10-14 25 Questions to Ponder
  22. 2005-10-14 Ancient Anthropoid Origins Discovered In Africa
  23. 2005-10-14 Flea's giant leap for mankind
  24. 2005-10-14 Is Homosexuality proof against evolution?
  25. 2005-10-14 Science is the basis of public schooling
  26. 2005-10-14 Scientists hit back at Dover video [Evolution trial, daily thread for 14 Oct]
  27. 2005-10-14 Today's breaking news in the world of EVOLUTION
  28. 2005-10-13 Crisis In The Cosmos?
  29. 2005-10-13 Dark Matter: Invisible, Mysterious and Perhaps Nonexistent -
  30. 2005-10-13 Dover players prepare for Supreme Court [Penna evolution trial]
  31. 2005-10-13 Government Urged to Back Science Education
  32. 2005-10-13 "INTELLIGENT DESIGN POLL (Gallup, via NRO: ""God Had No Part - 12%"")"
  33. 2005-10-13 Mysterious 'half-animal, half-plant' marine microbe discovered by Japanese researchers
  34. 2005-10-13 New finds of human ancestor jumble evolutionary puzzle
  35. 2005-10-13 PJI Sues UC Berkeley for Using Federal Funding to Distort Religious Beliefs
  36. 2005-10-12 Camden tool could be 5,000 years old
  37. 2005-10-12 Can an Electron be in Two Places at the Same Time?
  38. 2005-10-12 Challenge to Biological Evolution: Convergence
  39. 2005-10-12 Dover science teacher testifies [Evolution trial, thread for 12 Oct]
  40. 2005-10-12 Give Me That Old Time Evolution: A Response to the New Republic
  41. 2005-10-12 Intelligent Design 101: Short on science, long on snake oil
  42. 2005-10-12 Intelligent Design Debate Brews
  43. 2005-10-12 Intelligent Design? [...in California schools]
  44. 2005-10-12 NASA Discovers Life's Building Blocks Are Common In Space

CrevoSci Warrior Freepdays for the month of October:
 

2005-10-12 Alice au Wonderland
2003-10-09 antiRepublicrat
2004-10-10 Antonello
1998-10-18 AZLiberty
1999-10-14 blam
2000-10-19 cogitator
2001-10-21 Coyoteman
2004-10-26 curiosity
1998-10-29 Dataman
2000-10-29 dila813
2005-10-07 Dinobot
2001-10-14 dread78645
2005-10-14 EasyBOven
1998-10-03 Elsie
1998-10-17 f.Christian
2002-10-08 FairOpinion
2001-10-26 Genesis defender
2000-10-09 Gil4
2000-10-08 guitarist
2004-10-10 joeclarke
1998-10-03 js1138
2001-10-24 k2blader
2001-10-22 kanawa
2000-10-08 LibWhacker
2002-10-25 m1-lightning
2001-10-10 Michael_Michaelangelo
2001-10-09 Mother Abigail
2004-10-25 MRMEAN
2004-10-03 Nicholas Conradin
1999-10-28 PatrickHenry
1998-10-01 Physicist
2003-10-19 Pipeline
1998-10-25 plain talk
1998-10-12 Restorer
2005-10-04 ret_medic
2001-10-23 RightWingNilla
2005-10-08 SmoothTalker
2004-10-09 snarks_when_bored
1998-10-04 Southack
2002-10-22 sumocide
2004-10-21 WildHorseCrash
2001-10-23 yankeedame
2002-10-20 Z in Oregon
1998-10-29 zebra 2

In Memoriam
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ALS
Area Freeper
Aric2000
Askel5
bluepistolero
churchillbuff
ConservababeJen
DittoJed2
dob
Ed Current
f.Christian
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general_re
goodseedhomeschool
gopwinsin04
gore3000
Jedigirl
JesseShurun
Kevin Curry
kharaku
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medved
metacognative
Modernman
NoKinToMonkeys
Ogmios
peg the prophet
Phaedrus
Phoroneus
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RickyJ
SeaLion
Selkie
Shubi
Tomax
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WaveThatFlag
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63 posted on 10/18/2005 3:16:58 AM PDT by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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To: Alter Kaker; taxesareforever
"Yes, but they're heavily outnumbered by graduates of the University of Ibadan, Malone College, Biola University, and "Geronimo Creek" Observatory. But not one faculty member from any top department of biology or anthropology or zoology or any other related field anywhere in the world. That's pretty pathetic, isn't it?"

Heavily outnumbered? Hmmm. Interesting rhetorical trick there Alter ... looking at the list and then writing this above. Let's see.

The low recognition names you mentioned total in the list about 15 at the outside.

Well known internationals, about 8.

Premier USA universities: about 8.

Regular USA universities, including UCLA, U. Michigan, Ohio State, U. Georgie, U. Mass, Washington U., on and on ... roughly 54.

Given the odium that will be foisted on these men and women, it is a wonder they took the risk. What is wrong with all these people do you think? Bad LSD trips when they were young affecting their decision making today, sort of like Crick of panspermia fame?

64 posted on 10/18/2005 3:50:53 AM PDT by gobucks (http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/classics/students/Ribeiro/Laocoon.htm)
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To: Mark Felton

"Albert Einstein " believing in God is a quaint myth. Yes he said a few things using the word 'God'. He said a lot of other things too that don't get near as much press.


65 posted on 10/18/2005 3:52:22 AM PDT by gobucks (http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/classics/students/Ribeiro/Laocoon.htm)
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To: js1138

"Hmmm. Js, the issue is not I.D. to these 85 folks. The issue is lawyers and judges getting to decide what 'science' is, not the scientists themselves. "


This is fun!


66 posted on 10/18/2005 3:53:14 AM PDT by gobucks (http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/classics/students/Ribeiro/Laocoon.htm)
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To: Rudder

"ID presumes only one outcome of inquiry."

God + Aliens = 2

Maybe I don't understand your math?


67 posted on 10/18/2005 3:54:31 AM PDT by gobucks (http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/classics/students/Ribeiro/Laocoon.htm)
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To: Brilliant

"As long as they want a definition that won't hold up in court, that's fine."

Ah. So only the legal profession is allowed to 'own' what words mean?

You must be a lawyer ... or married to one.


68 posted on 10/18/2005 3:55:45 AM PDT by gobucks (http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/classics/students/Ribeiro/Laocoon.htm)
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To: A. Pole; jennyp
"That is why science was created by the philosophers (inspired by the theology) and practiced by the scientists."

So Biology classes for young, impressionable, kids should have a disclaimer which at least allows the notion to be put into their minds that what the 'scientists' who t(pr)each evolution are actually doing is practicing something invented by philosophers, who were 'inspired' by theologians. That 'science' is 'applied philosophy, but rooted in theology', yes?

That would be ok, yes?

(Jenny, your eloquence on this point of distinction would be welcomed...:))

69 posted on 10/18/2005 4:26:55 AM PDT by gobucks (http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/classics/students/Ribeiro/Laocoon.htm)
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To: WildTurkey
Then you would be in favor of atheists coming into the religion classes and presenting their side?

.

Actually yes. I find that what atheists say has a weird ring to it once their feelings in their voices become attached to it.

fwiw, you may have noticed that plenty of places that pass themselves off as Christian Seminaries are chock full of athiests. Think Union Theological Seminary and their ilk.

Much of the current cultural disaster is due to people who graduate from these 'Schools of God'.

But, by their fruits .... Yes, to all atheists, I would grant equal time, b/c bad fruit has a way of illuminating good fruit in a different light.

70 posted on 10/18/2005 4:31:50 AM PDT by gobucks (http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/classics/students/Ribeiro/Laocoon.htm)
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To: Alter Kaker
It's not that they're getting more liberal, it's that craziness like creationism is scaring them away.

While it's true that craziness like creationism and ID scare many people away, I don't think you can claim that's what has made the change in political makeup of the sciences. I think that has more to do with the change in academics in general. But I can offer nothing to back this assertion, I admit.

71 posted on 10/18/2005 4:32:13 AM PDT by Gondring (I'll give up my right to die when hell freezes over my dead body!)
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To: WildTurkey

This is not the same list ....


72 posted on 10/18/2005 4:33:06 AM PDT by gobucks (http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/classics/students/Ribeiro/Laocoon.htm)
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To: mlc9852; Coyoteman
Judges went to college - why assume they don't know science?

Most judges were also lawyers and went to law school. If you assume they are experts on the law, you'd be taking a risk.

73 posted on 10/18/2005 4:33:15 AM PDT by connectthedots
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To: Alter Kaker

"Older than dirt."

Really? How old is the dirt?


74 posted on 10/18/2005 4:36:07 AM PDT by gobucks (http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/classics/students/Ribeiro/Laocoon.htm)
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To: gobucks
An international group of scientists have filed a "friend of the court" brief with federal Judge John E. Jones III advising him that "the identification of intelligent causes is a well-established scientific practice" and asking him to allow "the freedom of scientists to pursue scientific evidence wherever it may lead."

I'm sorry but I cannot rightly apprehend the confusion of ideas that would lead someone to conclude that any outcome of the Dover trial would affect "scientists'" ability to pursuse whatever research their hearts desired, funding and the derision of their colleagues notwithstanding.

75 posted on 10/18/2005 4:36:55 AM PDT by RogueIsland
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To: connectthedots

So does it follow that those scientists who went to college are not experts in science?


76 posted on 10/18/2005 4:59:19 AM PDT by mlc9852
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To: gobucks

You're right. I'm a lawyer.


77 posted on 10/18/2005 5:01:41 AM PDT by Brilliant
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To: gobucks; ninenot; sittnick; steve50; Hegemony Cricket; Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; FITZ; ...
So Biology classes for young, impressionable, kids should have a disclaimer which at least allows the notion to be put into their minds that what the 'scientists' who t(pr)each evolution are actually doing is practicing something invented by philosophers, who were 'inspired' by theologians. That 'science' is 'applied philosophy, but rooted in theology', yes?

This is true. The initial concepts of science where part of philosophical theories in ancient Greece (Parmenides, Democritus, Plato, Aristotle and others). Then under influence of Christian faith these were developed by medieval theologians and scholasticians into mature system of science (Occam, Duns Scotus etc,) the institutional structure of science were worked out together with the creation of universities by the Roman Catholic Church. Then it science gradually separated, specialized and most of her narrow trained practitioners started to imagine that science was born like Athena from Zeus head. Then the worshipers of science came along.

So to pass judgments on the nature and boundaries of science one needs to know history of philosophy and theology. Even the best knowledge of chemistry does not give a chemist or geologist any authority in this area. All human institutions are evolving and if roots of science are forgotten and severed the science will die (for example by being absorbed by private business or totalitarian government).

78 posted on 10/18/2005 5:54:05 AM PDT by A. Pole (Lord Palmerston: "Nations had no permanent enemies or allies only permanent interests")
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To: WildTurkey
Then you would be in favor of atheists coming into the religion classes and presenting their side?

It would be excellent if the children could be exposed to the true intellectual debate and various speakers were invited. Unfortunately as it is now, the atheists and gay activists get preferential treatment.

79 posted on 10/18/2005 6:03:15 AM PDT by A. Pole (Lord Palmerston: "Nations had no permanent enemies or allies only permanent interests")
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To: gobucks
"Any (court) ruling that depends upon an outdated or inaccurate definition of science or which attempts to define the boundaries of science could hinder scientific progress," the brief states in asking Jones to find in favor of the Dover Area School Board.

How??


80 posted on 10/18/2005 6:31:54 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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