Scientists Back Dover - [85 scientists request scientists, not Judges, to define "science"]

York Daily Record ^ | 5 Oct 2005 | York Daily Record

[gobucks]

An international group of scientists have filed a "friend of the court" brief with federal Judge John E. Jones III advising him that "the identification of intelligent causes is a well-established scientific practice" and asking him to allow "the freedom of scientists to pursue scientific evidence wherever it may lead."

Jones is presiding over the Dover intelligent design trial.

The 24-page brief — carrying the names of 85 scientists in fields including chemistry, molecular biology, mathematics, neurological surgery and environmental science — states "the definition of science and the boundaries of science should be left to scientists to debate."

"Any (court) ruling that depends upon an outdated or inaccurate definition of science or which attempts to define the boundaries of science could hinder scientific progress," the brief states in asking Jones to find in favor of the Dover Area School Board.

[shuckmaster]

a scientist who is a fellow at the Discovery Institute

I bet you wouldn't recognize an oxymoron if it bit you on the rear.

[mlc9852]

Judges went to college - why assume they don't know science?

[Junior]

The CrevoSci Archive Just one of the many services of Darwin Central "The Conspiracy that Cares"

• PatrickHenry's famous List-O-Links

CrevoSci threads for the past week:

1. 2005-10-17 Cyborg cells sense humidity
2. 2005-10-17 Ichthyosaur bones found off U.K. coast
3. 2005-10-17 Intelligent Design is not Science (Kenneth Miller Speaks at Lehigh)
4. 2005-10-17 Jurassic Bark: Tree Thought Extinct Returned to the World
5. 2005-10-17 New Planetoid Discovery Sets Off Feud
6. 2005-10-17 Prof Speaks at 'Intelligent Design' Trial
7. 2005-10-17 "Scientists Back Dover - [85 scientists request scientists, not Judges, to define ""science""]"
8. 2005-10-17 Spitzer's Stunning Portrait of Andromeda
9. 2005-10-17 Supernova Storm Wiped Out Mammoths?
10. 2005-10-17 University separates itself from professor in Dover intelligent design suit
11. 2005-10-16 An Open Letter Concerning Religion and Science
12. 2005-10-16 Bad Frog Beer to 'intelligent design'
13. 2005-10-16 Evolution debate unchanged over time
14. 2005-10-16 Grown Man in the Stellar Crib: Now What? (Discoveries require rewriting the Astronomy books)
15. 2005-10-16 Museums take up evolution challenge
16. 2005-10-16 "Museums take up evolution challenge (because ""biology classes have faltered"")"
17. 2005-10-16 Pa. professor [Behe] to testify in landmark case [Dover evolution trial, 16 Oct]
18. 2005-10-16 The Separation of the Church of Darwin and State
19. 2005-10-15 God and global warming
20. 2005-10-15 Tracing the whale’s trail [Evolution trial, daily thread for 15 Oct]
21. 2005-10-14 25 Questions to Ponder
22. 2005-10-14 Ancient Anthropoid Origins Discovered In Africa
23. 2005-10-14 Flea's giant leap for mankind
24. 2005-10-14 Is Homosexuality proof against evolution?
25. 2005-10-14 Science is the basis of public schooling
26. 2005-10-14 Scientists hit back at Dover video [Evolution trial, daily thread for 14 Oct]
27. 2005-10-14 Today's breaking news in the world of EVOLUTION
28. 2005-10-13 Crisis In The Cosmos?
29. 2005-10-13 Dark Matter: Invisible, Mysterious and Perhaps Nonexistent -
30. 2005-10-13 Dover players prepare for Supreme Court [Penna evolution trial]
31. 2005-10-13 Government Urged to Back Science Education
32. 2005-10-13 "INTELLIGENT DESIGN POLL (Gallup, via NRO: ""God Had No Part - 12%"")"
33. 2005-10-13 Mysterious 'half-animal, half-plant' marine microbe discovered by Japanese researchers
34. 2005-10-13 New finds of human ancestor jumble evolutionary puzzle
35. 2005-10-13 PJI Sues UC Berkeley for Using Federal Funding to Distort Religious Beliefs
36. 2005-10-12 Camden tool could be 5,000 years old
37. 2005-10-12 Can an Electron be in Two Places at the Same Time?
38. 2005-10-12 Challenge to Biological Evolution: Convergence
39. 2005-10-12 Dover science teacher testifies [Evolution trial, thread for 12 Oct]
40. 2005-10-12 Give Me That Old Time Evolution: A Response to the New Republic
41. 2005-10-12 Intelligent Design 101: Short on science, long on snake oil
42. 2005-10-12 Intelligent Design Debate Brews
43. 2005-10-12 Intelligent Design? [...in California schools]
44. 2005-10-12 NASA Discovers Life's Building Blocks Are Common In Space

---

CrevoSci Warrior Freepdays for the month of October:
 

2005-10-12 Alice au Wonderland 2003-10-09 antiRepublicrat 2004-10-10 Antonello 1998-10-18 AZLiberty 1999-10-14 blam 2000-10-19 cogitator 2001-10-21 Coyoteman 2004-10-26 curiosity 1998-10-29 Dataman 2000-10-29 dila813 2005-10-07 Dinobot

2001-10-14 dread78645 2005-10-14 EasyBOven 1998-10-03 Elsie 1998-10-17 f.Christian 2002-10-08 FairOpinion 2001-10-26 Genesis defender 2000-10-09 Gil4 2000-10-08 guitarist 2004-10-10 joeclarke 1998-10-03 js1138 2001-10-24 k2blader

2001-10-22 kanawa 2000-10-08 LibWhacker 2002-10-25 m1-lightning 2001-10-10 Michael_Michaelangelo 2001-10-09 Mother Abigail 2004-10-25 MRMEAN 2004-10-03 Nicholas Conradin 1999-10-28 PatrickHenry 1998-10-01 Physicist 2003-10-19 Pipeline 1998-10-25 plain talk

1998-10-12 Restorer 2005-10-04 ret_medic 2001-10-23 RightWingNilla 2005-10-08 SmoothTalker 2004-10-09 snarks_when_bored 1998-10-04 Southack 2002-10-22 sumocide 2004-10-21 WildHorseCrash 2001-10-23 yankeedame 2002-10-20 Z in Oregon 1998-10-29 zebra 2

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In Memoriam
Fallen CrevoSci Warriors:

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ALS Area Freeper Aric2000 Askel5 bluepistolero churchillbuff ConservababeJen DittoJed2 dob Ed Current

f.Christian followerofchrist general_re goodseedhomeschool gopwinsin04 gore3000 Jedigirl JesseShurun Kevin Curry kharaku

Le-Roy Marathon medved metacognative Modernman NoKinToMonkeys Ogmios peg the prophet Phaedrus Phoroneus

pickemuphere ret_medic RickyJ SeaLion Selkie Shubi Tomax tpaine WaveThatFlag xm177e2

Bring back Modernman and SeaLion!

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[gobucks]

"Yes, but they're heavily outnumbered by graduates of the University of Ibadan, Malone College, Biola University, and "Geronimo Creek" Observatory. But not one faculty member from any top department of biology or anthropology or zoology or any other related field anywhere in the world. That's pretty pathetic, isn't it?"

Heavily outnumbered? Hmmm. Interesting rhetorical trick there Alter ... looking at the list and then writing this above. Let's see.

The low recognition names you mentioned total in the list about 15 at the outside.

Well known internationals, about 8.

Premier USA universities: about 8.

Regular USA universities, including UCLA, U. Michigan, Ohio State, U. Georgie, U. Mass, Washington U., on and on ... roughly 54.

Given the odium that will be foisted on these men and women, it is a wonder they took the risk. What is wrong with all these people do you think? Bad LSD trips when they were young affecting their decision making today, sort of like Crick of panspermia fame?

[gobucks]

"Albert Einstein " believing in God is a quaint myth. Yes he said a few things using the word 'God'. He said a lot of other things too that don't get near as much press.

[gobucks]

"Hmmm. Js, the issue is not I.D. to these 85 folks. The issue is lawyers and judges getting to decide what 'science' is, not the scientists themselves. "


This is fun!

[gobucks]

"ID presumes only one outcome of inquiry."

God + Aliens = 2

Maybe I don't understand your math?

[gobucks]

"As long as they want a definition that won't hold up in court, that's fine."

Ah. So only the legal profession is allowed to 'own' what words mean?

You must be a lawyer ... or married to one.

[gobucks]

"That is why science was created by the philosophers (inspired by the theology) and practiced by the scientists."

So Biology classes for young, impressionable, kids should have a disclaimer which at least allows the notion to be put into their minds that what the 'scientists' who t(pr)each evolution are actually doing is practicing something invented by philosophers, who were 'inspired' by theologians. That 'science' is 'applied philosophy, but rooted in theology', yes?

That would be ok, yes?

(Jenny, your eloquence on this point of distinction would be welcomed...:))

[gobucks]

Then you would be in favor of atheists coming into the religion classes and presenting their side?

.

Actually yes. I find that what atheists say has a weird ring to it once their feelings in their voices become attached to it.

fwiw, you may have noticed that plenty of places that pass themselves off as Christian Seminaries are chock full of athiests. Think Union Theological Seminary and their ilk.

Much of the current cultural disaster is due to people who graduate from these 'Schools of God'.

But, by their fruits .... Yes, to all atheists, I would grant equal time, b/c bad fruit has a way of illuminating good fruit in a different light.

[Gondring]

It's not that they're getting more liberal, it's that craziness like creationism is scaring them away.

While it's true that craziness like creationism and ID scare many people away, I don't think you can claim that's what has made the change in political makeup of the sciences. I think that has more to do with the change in academics in general. But I can offer nothing to back this assertion, I admit.

[gobucks]

This is not the same list ....

[connectthedots]

Judges went to college - why assume they don't know science?

Most judges were also lawyers and went to law school. If you assume they are experts on the law, you'd be taking a risk.

[gobucks]

"Older than dirt."

Really? How old is the dirt?

[RogueIsland]

An international group of scientists have filed a "friend of the court" brief with federal Judge John E. Jones III advising him that "the identification of intelligent causes is a well-established scientific practice" and asking him to allow "the freedom of scientists to pursue scientific evidence wherever it may lead."

I'm sorry but I cannot rightly apprehend the confusion of ideas that would lead someone to conclude that any outcome of the Dover trial would affect "scientists'" ability to pursuse whatever research their hearts desired, funding and the derision of their colleagues notwithstanding.

[mlc9852]

So does it follow that those scientists who went to college are not experts in science?

[Brilliant]

You're right. I'm a lawyer.

[A. Pole]

So Biology classes for young, impressionable, kids should have a disclaimer which at least allows the notion to be put into their minds that what the 'scientists' who t(pr)each evolution are actually doing is practicing something invented by philosophers, who were 'inspired' by theologians. That 'science' is 'applied philosophy, but rooted in theology', yes?

This is true. The initial concepts of science where part of philosophical theories in ancient Greece (Parmenides, Democritus, Plato, Aristotle and others). Then under influence of Christian faith these were developed by medieval theologians and scholasticians into mature system of science (Occam, Duns Scotus etc,) the institutional structure of science were worked out together with the creation of universities by the Roman Catholic Church. Then it science gradually separated, specialized and most of her narrow trained practitioners started to imagine that science was born like Athena from Zeus head. Then the worshipers of science came along.

So to pass judgments on the nature and boundaries of science one needs to know history of philosophy and theology. Even the best knowledge of chemistry does not give a chemist or geologist any authority in this area. All human institutions are evolving and if roots of science are forgotten and severed the science will die (for example by being absorbed by private business or totalitarian government).

[A. Pole]

Then you would be in favor of atheists coming into the religion classes and presenting their side?

It would be excellent if the children could be exposed to the true intellectual debate and various speakers were invited. Unfortunately as it is now, the atheists and gay activists get preferential treatment.

[Elsie]

"Any (court) ruling that depends upon an outdated or inaccurate definition of science or which attempts to define the boundaries of science could hinder scientific progress," the brief states in asking Jones to find in favor of the Dover Area School Board.

How??