Posted on 09/24/2005 1:33:27 PM PDT by NYer
News reports surrounding the review of Roman Catholic seminaries in the United States that the Vatican has organized have focused on the possibility that Rome plans to bar gay men from ordination to the priesthood, regardless of their readiness to remain faithful to their pledge of celibacy.
Such a ban would have serious consequences, of course. It would reverberate far beyond the gay candidates for ordination whom it might directly affect and even beyond the celibate gay priests who would inevitably take it as a judgment on their own calling and years of service.
In fact, the Catholic Church's moral stance on same-sex attraction and sexual activity may well prove to be a touchstone issue for the next generation of Catholics' attitudes toward church authority, just as the renewed papal condemnation of contraception proved to be for Catholics in the 1970's and 80's.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
You're certainly right about this: that the NYT would never call a perverted sex drive a "disorder."
"There wasn't. I have asked that repeatedly. And asked his twin. He knew he felt different from a young age."
In cases like that, self-reporting simply cannot be considered conclusive.
In addition, there are lots and lots of people who feel "different" from a young age who don't develop SSAD.
"In all populations, one percent of men are gay...many quite effeminite."
Ah, but some men who are quite effiminate never become benny boys.
Further, with today's increased access of disordered men to the young, the rate of SSAD is growing. Camille Paglia said a person would have to be blind not to see that. And it is growing the fastest where access is the greatest.
I was talking to a man once who told me that in in his younger, single days, when looking for girls (not children) to seduce, he always sought out those who had a bad relationship with their fathers, or who had no fathers, because the rate of success was much higher.
During my own horny years I was not clever enough to do that, but thinking back on my infrequent successes, I also see that trend.
I think that's the reason that boys with absent fathers or who are effeminate develop SSAD wiht greater frequency. They are more attractive targets for predators.
As for "bisexuality," like any other mental disorder, SSAD can manifest with greater or lesser severity, and can become more severe or less with time. A "bisexual" man is merely a man with a less severe case, one that does not prevent him from functioning with a women.
You hear about married men who have the occasional compulsion -- and compulsion is the correct term, in its clinical sense -- to engage in perverted behavior with men. However, you never hear of a man who has identified himself as fully homosexual who has the occasional compulsion -- in the same sense of the word -- to have sex with women.
You haven't identified the source of the opinions you are presenting there, as I earlier pointed out. And, as I did earlier also, I assume your opinions are those taught to you, socially, and acquired by you, liberally from and among other opinion-based "academics."
I respect your opinions - I realize many from the socially indoctrinated group of acquired opinion-as-knowledge don't respect mine but it's not important an issue to me here or otherwise - but the opinions you continue with are just those: opinions you have acquired from non-specified and non-proven suggestions, meaning they are entirely subjective conjectures.
For instance, you opine: "sexuality is malleable (sic)" and yet no, no it is not. You carry forward with that conjecture -- very significant in implications -- as if it was proven (it is not) and don't define or explain where that opinion of yours originates, or even explain that point further.
The rest...again...all that you've written there is mere opinion, entirely subjective, a tad like reading a novel, in no disrespect to you as an individual, but unless you take an objective approach to these important issues, you and others who carry on with them continue to proliferate and encourage opinions as "truth" when they are not and are no more than opinion.
Which is why I earlier pointed out that unless a hypothesis (which is opinion, conjecture, imagined premise) is substantiated by a specific process of evidence and proof, it's remains mere suggestion only.
Which is where our popular culture is about these sliding scale, variable possibilities and hunches about homosexuality and other sexual behaviors...and of worse unfortunatily, those imaginings have been allowed to be 'taught' and instructed in public educational systems as 'fact' when they are anything but fact but mere popular opinion, without evidence otherwise, other than those making the most noise about certain opinions manage to be heard.
Homosexuality is behavioral. It has never been proven to be "inherent" and that's the actual fact within science (and my religious beliefs) as of this date.
I understand your difficulty with this. The whole situation challenged everything I had believed about homosexuality. I have a few gay friends who alway say they were born that way, but I had never had anyone so close to me that I could have deep difficult discussions with. I know in my soul he did not choose to be gay. However, I still feel that some choose and I feel abuse is a factor in some. I believe there are many factors which can come into play, that sexuality is not as simple as I once believed.
This man's parents will not even allow him to enter their home. He has not had Christmas or Thanksgiving with them for at least 5 years. I have seen him wailing in pain at this. They think he can choose not to be gay and until he does, they will have nothing to do with him. If he could, he would do so to regain his parents' love; he has told me that.
He does not date; he is avoiding his sexuality at all costs so that maybe they will accept him. But his parents want him to have a girlfriend. That is "proof" to them that he has changed and he says he cannot do that to a girl--he cannot use her simply to perpetuate a myth.
Seeing this so close to me has affected me deeply.
My wife, who is a conservative Catholic like me, surprised me by disagreeing with the nature of this initiative by Rome. Her line of thinking was that there a man with homosexual orientation who does not consent to his temptation is as honorable a priest as the heterosexual who also resists temptation. She went on about heterosexual priests who womanize or don't belive in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and how this it too heavy-handed. I was a bit surprised, and in understanding that Christ judges each man and woman individually, I understood her reservation. However, in response, I made one point that she could not disagree with:
It's quite possible that Christ does not call homosexuals (even honorable, holy men) to the priesthood. Period. Much like the Church teaches that Christ does not call women to the priesthood, either. This stopped her in her tracks. She had to agree. Since priesthood is a privelege, not a right, there is, in my opinion, enough evidence to support that homosexuals are not called to be priests, in the same way that a eunuch is not called to be married.
"Seeing this so close to me has affected me deeply."
There's nothing wrong with being deeply affected, but it is worth noting that ethical psychiatrists will not accept cases that affect them deeply. Being deeply affected affects our judgment.
"I have a few gay friends who alway say they were born that way"
People are always looking for a reason to say, "I get to take the least difficult path because I can't help it."
"I know in my soul he did not choose to be gay."
I don't think anyone chooses to develop SSAD, any more than people choose to develop PTSD or depression. Great trauma can result in all sorts of disorders, and while these are usually maladaptive attempts to deal with the trauma, you can't really call them choices.
"I feel abuse is a factor in some."
Abuse is the cause of some cases, and seduction is the cause of the rest. I wouldn't recommend you try and pry back into this man's past to get him to admit or remember what happened to him, though. It could be catastrophic. That's a job for a professional.
"I have seen him wailing in pain at this."
Have you seen him searching for a treatment that will work for him?
"They think he can choose not to be gay"
I really hate the way that word has been stolen to describe a mental disorder that manifests as a compulsion to engage in loathsome perversions.
I don't believe he can just choose to be cured of SSAD and it will happen just like that, but he **can** choose to seek treatment. He can choose to pray.
"If he could, he would do so to regain his parents' love; he has told me that."
So, he'll be going from treatment to treatment until he finds one that works, right?
"he is avoiding his sexuality at all costs so that maybe they will accept him."
Yeah, right. Nudge, nudge; wink, wink.
"he says he cannot do that to a girl--he cannot use her simply to perpetuate a myth."
He could easily strike a deal with a lipstick lesbian that needed a beard.
I shared a personal and painful experience with you. I find some of your comments insulting, especially since you do not know the people involved.
"I find some of your comments insulting"
Well, I'm sorry if they came off that way.
I was trying to point out that accepting excuses out of compassion can often constitute enabling.
Yeah, he's staying because I'll eat Christmas dinner with him.
"Yeah, he's staying because I'll eat Christmas dinner with him."
You know, alcoholics often say that that an alcoholic never recovers until he hits bottom.
That is enough. Thank you.
Are they identical or fraternal twins? If they are identical, that disproves the thesis that homosexuality is innate as both would be homosexual.
They are fraternal, as are their aunts and my two! They do run in our family.
I know that Steinfels is a Lutheran, though likely of the ELC variety.
" And how many faithful Catholics are on the NY Times editorial board?"
Only Maureen Dowd type "Catholics" need apply.
Remember that until very recently, men with homosexual leanings who came from Catholic families entered the priesthood as a way to remain faithful without betraying their sexuality. Once in, they met others such as themselves and failed to deny their sexual urges, leading to the lavendar culture of many seminaries.
As has been noted many times on this forum (and elsewhere), orthodoxy begets vocations. Even now, it is the case that the seminaries with a reputation for doctrinal orthodoxy and for not accepting poofters are also full, and in some cases expanding their facilities so that they can accept more students. Running out the queers, far from causing a shortage of priests, is clearly part of the solution to the current shortage of priests. Indeed, it could be reasonably argued that allowing the queers to take over many seminaries was a cause of the priest shortage.
Sorry, but I was "educated" BEFORE political correctness...in the 1950's and 1960's, before liberals took over...
anthropologically, there are gays in every culture...and since I've worked as a missionary in about eight cultures, I think I can base this on personal observation...
This implies inborn genetic reasons partly behind it, similar to other genetic behavioral problems (sociopathy, phobias, drug abuse).
Such things make one prone to certain sins, but people are free to give into temptations or not. That is where the "Choice" lies.
And the expression of such tendencies vary from culture to culture, due to social pressures. This is where I state the actions can be influenced by cultures. The observation of gays being from families with strong mothers and absent fathers goes back to the late 1880's...and Freud.
The argument of nature vs nurture on homosexuality and other personality traits has gone back and forth several times since I went to medical school...right now the "inborn" is on top, but thirty years ago, it was "developmental" causes...
Actually, it is probably both. But both early childhood influences AND inborn tendencies can interact in a person, and it is very hard for us docs to change these things once a person is an adult... for depression and phobias, prozac helps but doesn't cure...but psychotherapy and drugs can't do a thing for deep rooted homosexuality (as opposed to mild tendencies that are much more common)...
If a person could merely "chose" to be gay, he could be cured...and indeed, many can be cured. But NOT all can become heterosexual...some must chose celibacy...
"The number of men and women who have deep seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial...Homosexual persons are called to chastity..." (Catechism of the catholic church)...
However, many who under certain circumstances have no access to women, or many who are bisexual can be seduced into the gay lifestyle...They can "chose" to enter into the heterosexual lifestyle...and their actions are greatly influenced by cultural standards, which is why the gay agenda to normalize homosexuality needs to be opposed: Because they will "recruit" many confused bisexual boys and girls into thinking that once you have performed a homosexual act, you are required to go into this lifestyle...(which is how the PC are teaching our children)...
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