Posted on 09/15/2005 7:03:21 AM PDT by groanup
THE FAIRTAX --- STRAIGHTENING OUT SOME CONFUSION
When Congressman Linder and I were busy researching and writing The FairTax Book we knew full well that it would one day become the focal point for those opposed to this tax reform idea. We tried, therefore, to make sure that our numbers and claims were correct and consistent with the research that went into the drafting of HR 25.
On review, and after reading the critiques of opponents to the FairTax plan, we have concluded that there is one element of the FairTax that could have been present with more clarity in the book; the concept of embedded taxes and keeping 100% of your paycheck. Those who have much to lose if the FairTax were to become law will focus on these areas in an attempt to undermine support, so let's put their objections and distortions to rest by addressing those matters here and now.
We explained in the book that the FairTax plan was revenue neutral. By this we meant revenue neutral for everyone ... the government, businesses and individuals. You can't put more money in the pockets of one without taking money out of the pockets of another. The harsh reality is that politicians would not support the FairTax if it meant less revenue for the federal government; business leaders would not support the FairTax if it meant a decrease in corporate earnings and profits, and the people would most certainly not support the FairTax if it meant a decrease in their income. Taking an snapshot view of our economy, an increase in income in one of these sectors would necessarily mean a decrease in another. This is why the FairTax was designed to be absolutely revenue neutral leaving everyone pretty much where they are in terms of income or revenue. To put it more bluntly, there is no free lunch in the FairTax plan. There is no "something-for-nothing."
This brings us to the question of embedded taxes in the cost of consumer goods and services, and your paychecks.
As explained in The FairTax Book, there are taxes embedded in everything we buy. Every entity which provides a product or service in the design, production, marketing, distribution and sale of every consumer good or service will incur some tax liability as they perform their particular function. This tax liability will be incorporated into whatever these individuals or business entitles charge for their services, and will all passed through to become a part of the final cost of the product or service.
Now here's what we didn't explain well in the book.
Every employee of any company involved in American commerce is also a provider of a service, and, as such, the employee incurs a tax liability as a result of his or her work. This tax liability is incorporated into what the employee charges the employer for their services, and is eventually incorporated into the final retail cost of the employer's product or service. Each employee is essentially a separate business entity providing a product, be it physical or mental labor, to the employer.
The extensive research behind HR 25, The FairTax Bill, shows that the average embedded taxes in every consumer product or service is about 22%. In some industries, such as leather goods, the embedded tax is smaller. In other industries, such as homebuilding and construction, the embedded tax is higher, but it averages out to somewhere between 22 and 23%. With the passage of The FairTax Bill, those embedded taxes disappear. These embedded taxes include the combined tax burdens of all entities involved in bringing those goods or services to market, and that includes you, the employee, and the taxes you incur as a result of your employment.
We write in The FairTax Book that the competitive pressures of the marketplace will force prices down when embedded taxes disappear from the cost of retail goods and services, and we cite 22% as the average amount of those embedded taxes. Does this 22% include the income and payroll taxes that are paid by employees? Yes, it does. So ... what does this mean to your paycheck after the FairTax becomes law?
When the FairTax is implemented, and when business and personal income and payroll taxes disappear, your employer is going to have to make a decision. He will either take some or the entire amount he had been withholding for federal income and payroll taxes and add it to your weekly check, or he will readjust your pay figures so that your entire paycheck will be equal to what you used to call "take home pay" before the FairTax. The employer may also decide to do a little of both. Either way, you can see that the amount of money you actually receive as pay the amount you can put into your bank account will not decrease, and may actually increase.
On a larger scale real wages will rise to the extent to which the nation's employers decide to return the embedded costs of their employee's income and payroll taxes to the employee. Likewise, the cost of the products or services produced by the employer will be reduced to the extent to which that employer retains all or a portion of those income and payroll taxes together with the other taxes on capital and labor eliminated by the FairTax. Once again, a zero-sum, revenue neutral game.
Now, let's elaborate on the "keep 100% of your paycheck" line that appears in The FairTax Book. It is certainly true that after the FairTax becomes law there will be no more withholding from your paycheck for any federal taxes. What you earn is what you get. This is not to say that your gross pay will equal what it was before the FairTax. This will depend on what your employer does when the embedded costs represented by the tax burden you have passed on to your employer disappear. One thing is certain: You will suffer no decrease in real or net earnings --- the amount of each paycheck you deposit into your bank account every other week. The "keep 100% of your paycheck" concept can more easily be applied to those who either change jobs or come into the labor force after the implementation of the FairTax. A new worker will negotiate a wage with an employer knowing that the amount negotiated will be the amount that worker receives every two weeks ... no deductions. Likewise, when you change employers you, too, will negotiate a wage that will not be subject to withholding, and you will get 100% of your wages in each paycheck.
Some of you reading this amplification of the principle's of the FairTax may have come to a rather interesting and accurate conclusion. The reality is that in America we're already operating our federal government off a consumption tax. A convoluted and impossible to understand consumption tax, but consumption tax nonetheless. We say this because ultimately all taxes paid by businesses or individuals eventually make their way through our economic system until they are embedded in the cost of some consumer item or service. In other words, taxes, like that other stuff you've heard about, roll down hill. At the bottom of that hill we find the retail sale and you, the ultimate consumer.
As we said in the book, and as we repeat here, the FairTax is not a "something for nothing" scheme. It was designed to be and, in fact, is revenue neutral. Having said that; the non-government economists who studied the FairTax play are nearly unanimous in their agreement that the implementation of the FairTax will lead to unprecedented economic growth in the United States. We will see economic growth in our economy of such magnitude that it will, sooner rather than later, lift all boats ---- including yours.
That is false. Victoria Secret, its employees and vendors are subject the the income tax today. Lingerie is an example of the legitimate economy. It can be taxed under either system.
I havent thought completely thought the fair tax stuff yet, but one thing seems obvious to me.
If retailers are forced to add 22% to the cost of all their goods, then wouldn't I just buy everything from the black market and save 22%? Wouldn't most people? And wouldn't it be about as enforcable as prohibition and the current drugs laws.
Where is my logic wrong?
There are clearly more than the two alternatives you offer as the be-all and end-all options you proffer (your "economists assume ..." nonsense). And any claims about prices declining are hardly based upon a single economist as you state. None of you SQLers have ever been willing to admit that the costs of cascading taxation embedded into prices will be removed when the FairTax becomes law. This will certainly work to reduce prices and I have no doubt that studies are ongoing on these effects.
There is certainly no reason why there is not AT LEAST a third assumption having wages increase and prices decrease - but this doesn't fit the SQL playbill of disinformation so you never mention it as a possibility. It is, however, clearly another option to the two you present and probably the most likely of all. And your "economists assume" only two outcomes statement is nonsense. That's YOUR statement.
And there is nothing that I have seen in "The FairTax Book" that states that both benefits occur simultaneously in any event - that again is merely your statement to try to persuade others that any FairTax supporter is lying. They certainly could both occur and whether at the same time or reasonably close to each other is difficult to say. Are you trying to persuade us that only one will occur exclusively of the other? On what do you base that assumption???
Well, Nightie your #33 on this thread (of which you seem so proud) is just the same old rehash you're done previously. Perhaps you have re-arranged the order of some of the snippets, but that can easily be sorted out in my response to your original post of this nonsense which was ---
That is a major problem with the sales tax. Experience around the world suggests that when rates get to the 12-15% range (well below the proposed "Fair Tax") there is massive evasion. The risk/reward of evading a large sales tax crosses the tipping point.
Your logic is wrong in that you are using the 22/23% rate, which is the 'inclusive rate'. Really, this sale tax bill will add on a 30% sales tax to the cost of the item. But other than that, you make a legitimate point.
First off, no they don't. For what reason? The only reason they have to report all that now is because of the IRS income requirements. Looking through the text of the legislation, I'm not seeing it. Got link?
Second. Yes? And? You have to do a lot more than just register now. Filing out a post card is a lot different than the financial proctological exam I get now. Sec 302 covers the requirements.
Third. Bull. Retailers, yes. Consumers? No where have I read this. Point to the section of the legislation or stop lying about what it says. Sect 501 goes over this. Only those retailers that will be collecting said taxes have a reporting requirement. Again, Got link?
The Devil is in the details.
Your income is reported to the Social Security Administration for the purpose of benefit and rate calculations. It is in the bill.
Try again sparky.
Obvioiusly, Boortz himself denying this made little difference to you.
"Furs and vacations are examples of the legitimate economy. Either a sales tax or a income tax will capture that."
Please explain to me how an income tax captures the taxes owed by a member of the underground economy when they buy furs or take a vacation.
Here are the excerpts. In section 101, this portion of the bill declares the consumer is liable for the tax:
`(d) Liability for Tax -
`(1) IN GENERAL- The person using or consuming taxable property or services in the United States is liable for the tax imposed by this section, except as provided in paragraph (2) of this subsection.
And here are the Sectio 501 reporting requirements:
`(a) Tax Reports and Filing Dates-
`(1) IN GENERAL- On or before the 15th day of each month, each person who is--
`(A) liable to collect and remit the tax imposed by this subtitle by reason of section 103(a), or
`(B) liable to pay tax imposed by this subtitle which is not collected pursuant to section 103(a),
shall submit to the appropriate sales tax administering authority .....
It is 501(a)(1)(B) which requires the individual who did not have his taxes collected via a receipt from a registered business ('pursuant to section 103(a)') required to submit his sales tax.
First of all, furs and vacations are not part of the underground economy. They are part of the legitimate economy. Those activities are lawful and are taxed.
Let's look at a vacationer to Disneyworld. He stays at Holiday Inn. The lodging service is taxed. Holiday Inn pays income tax. Holiday Inn's employees pay income tax. Holiday Inn provides soap. The soap manufacturer and its employees pay tax.
The vacationer goes to Disney. Disney pays income tax. Disney's employees pay income tax. Disney buys electricity to operate the rides. The utility and its employees pay income tax.
Is it really news to you that the legitimate economy gets taxed, or do you really think a vacation is an example of the underground economy. I suspect the latter. Trust me, vacations (and fur purchases) are in the above-ground economy, not the underground economy. I can't believe you disagree.
That is an accurate response to nearly all the complaints about the NRST. And what is the logical conclusion to that? That that was not a true complaint at all since it already exists, but instead a faux excuse for maintaining the contemptible status quo.
Why don't you try just reading the damn book.
It may answer some of your doubts.
And what is our current income tax rate? How many collection points? And under theFair Tax how many collection points? And how many cooperating people does it take to evade now and under the Fair Tax? How may non-filers are there now? I'd rather see a smaller number of businesses and service providers policed than all US citizens and residents. How accurate is our present system if 10 accountants from Money magazine can't even come close to figuring the right amount of tax due.
Stop twisting the meaning. I mean it. It is getting embarassing for me to have to point this stuff out to you.
Are you trying to state that the person that earns their income from the underground economy carries the same burden today as the burden they will carry under an NRST?
The Fair Tax is easier to evade. Either a dishonest buyer or seller can evade the Fair Tax. Dishonest Buyer: Presents a sales tax exemption certificate for items of personal consumption. Dishonest Seller: Collects sales tax but fails to remit it.
A dishonest seller can evade the income tax by simply not filing. A dishonest buyer cannot evade the income tax.
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