Replacement Pumps Don't Exist

Los Angeles Times ^ | September 3, 2005 | Peter Pae

[A. Pole]

Efforts to drain New Orleans hit another snag Friday as the Army Corps of Engineers discovered that it could not buy new pumps to replace those damaged by the flooding.

Massive pumps capable of draining the city like those that have been keeping New Orleans dry for decades are no longer made and would have to be specially ordered, a process that would take too long, said Col. Richard Wagenaar, the senior corps official in New Orleans.

Instead, repair crews will have to dry out the existing pumps, which could take up to a week, before repairing them with replacement motors and parts and begin pumping water back into Lake Pontchartrain. The repair job could prolong efforts to drain the city, about 80% of which is submerged.

"These pumps are so big, you can't buy them off the shelf. You have to make them, and we don't have time for that," said Wagenaar, who spent about an hour Friday escorting President Bush around the levee damage at the 17th Street Canal.

The city, much of which is below sea level, relies on a network of 22 pumps to keep water out. Army engineers now believe eight pumps are underwater.

The latest wrinkle illustrated the enormous complexity of draining the city, which for more than 200 years had gradually built up an elaborate system to keep itself dry.

Even with the setback, Wagenaar said, the city could be drained in three to six months, mainly because engineers may finally be able to get to the largest pump station, at the end of the 17th Street Canal, as early as today.

[...]

[Ichneumon]

By the way, the US Army Corp of Engineers didn't know this about the pumps, which makes me wonder what they were doing the last 30 years.

Ouch. That's gonna leave a mark...

[Cvengr]

Hmmmm,...I wonder if there are any nearby oil field geologic rock formations that need water injection in those magnitudes.

[Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy]

Theoretically, you can lift water about 14 feet. In reality, you can lift it about 10 feet. Efficiency drops as draft increases. Tolerances have to be tighter also.

So, you build a series of pumps lifting to higher and higher levels. As others have pointed out, though, it's not the pumps themselves which stop working when flooded; it's their power source that has stopped working thanks to flooding. Their electrical generators are flooded, and it is these which could have been located above the flood zone. The pumps could have continued to work - or anyway could have been built to have worked - while submerged, if planners had considered the problem.

[_Jim]

Interesting material; In 1915 the first four of his new twelve-foot pumps used 600 HP synchronous AC motors with shaft turning at 75 RPM delivering 247,500 gallons per minute at a 7 foot 'head' ...

[rkhampton]

Hmmmm,...I wonder if there are any nearby oil field geologic rock formations that need water injection in those magnitudes.

Since it's quite long, I haven't read this whole thread, but that's the first reasonable suggestion I've heard. I don't know much about the oil industry, but wouldn't the equipment need to be reconfigured a bit for this application?

[_Jim]

Electrical devices that are intended to be used near water generally are built to be submersible without ill effect.

The AC Switchgear at the pump stations were designed to operate submerged?

[Ichneumon]

The AC Switchgear at the pump stations were designed to operate submerged?

Obviously not...

But the pump stations should have been built to survive a worst-case flood (since their entire purpose is to *HANDLE* floods), and they weren't.

[savedbygrace]

OK.

[_Jim]

Their electrical generators are flooded

Which generators?

Are they generating their own electic power on site?

(Motors maybe? There is a difference ...)

[auburntiger]

"Massive pumps capable of draining the city like those that have been keeping New Orleans dry for decades are no longer made.."

No, many other items (e.g. high pressure, thick-walled vessels for the petroleum industry) that we took as granted at one time are no longer made in this country. I can quote many other examples. It is the result of outsourcing.

Outsourcing looks good and is very popular with management these days because it generates an immediate monetary payout. This is the American quick-buck, short-term planning method. However, outsourcing also involves the transfer of technology which will be lost by the source country.

Ah yes, it moves the stock market, but it will bite the next generation in the a$$.

[HIDEK6]

This article is BS. I saw the head Lt. Ge. from the Corps of Engineers on C-Span and he said all the pumping stations except one were operational.

[Johnny Crab]

RE: Massive pumps capable of draining the city like those that have been keeping New Orleans dry for decades are no longer made and would have to be specially ordered)))

Maybe. I'll ask sister(P.E. civil in NOLA for 20+ years...now in Houston). My experience with procurement of large stuff in petrochem: throw more money at it and it CAN show up faster. I don't see how the pumps would be shot....the motors yes. The multi-plant facility I'm at has sped-up delivery of CRITICAL motors/repair of(rewind,etc.) with the proper infusion of $$$.

[_Jim]

But the pump stations should have been built to survive a worst-case flood

Oh, EASY to say, not so easy to economically implement ...

Is the first time in about 100 years (minus about 10) that levees have broken and allowed water to this magnitude to 'flood' in?

If so, this is a one in a hundred year occurance; perhaps NOT worth the trouble of designing for that contingency ...

[AnAmericanMother]

Awesome.

Thank you.

[_Jim]

And Allis-Chalmers made some of these as well.

Reading your second source, it appears that "Nordberg Manufacturing Company" of Milwaukee actually built the pumps; Allis-Chalmes built the 25 Hz 3-phase synchronous motors and other electrical equipment ...

[_Jim]

I don't see how the pumps would be shot....the motors yes. The multi-plant facility I'm at has sped-up delivery of CRITICAL motors/repair of(rewind,etc.) with the proper infusion of $$$.

Such as using a large, walk-in altitude chamber (like an old Bowser) for few hours to 'suck' all the moisture out (like a huge Bell jar) of the motor windings ...

[notpoliticallycorewrecked]

Well I see that you are good at critizing. But do YOU have any better ideas?

Why do you think that the water is going to run right back into the city? An obviously intelligent person could figure out that the unit would pump the water below the breech.

The temp pumps can be flown in by military helicopter along with a generator that will run them. Then a crew can fuel and maintain a few times a day.

I'm sure that the military has one or two people that know how to run a pumping system. I'm sure that the military know how and where to house their people.

[isthisnickcool]

What de hell iz wrong wit the girlymen that run New Ahrleans? Do dey need to be pumped up? Talk to me know and listen to me later! Ve can pump all de water out!

(grimace)(flex)(grimace)(flex)

New Ahrleans! Vee can pump you up!

Seriously, how could anyone be the mayor of that city or the gov. of the state and knowing that it takes constant pumping to keep the place dry not have some kind of concern that what just happened might happen? And they are blaming this on Bush? What a crock!

And what sane person could even sleep at night in NO knowing all of this? I never knew New Orleans was in this kind of absurd state. They might as well just flood the place and leave.

[AnAmericanMother]

Well of course not ACTUALLY with chewing gum and baling wire, I was speaking figuratively, and out of admiration for his resourcefulness and that of the Corps.

I'm sure dad would never do a job that made things WORSE . . . before mom and dad retired and sold their old house, he had a machine shop in the basement that couldn't be beat. He rebuilt motors and built his own boat, so he certainly understands about tolerances. On the other hand, my grandfather was an electrical engineer GA Tech '18, and spent his entire working life with Westinghouse Electric in the Large Generator Division (they built turbines for the big dams out west), so he was more conversant with the BIG stuff. My great great grandfather was a civil engineer, Class of '43, University of GA. That's 1843. But of course all he knew was the big steam engines . . . although those were surprisingly effective (if occasionally explosive).

[_Jim]

The temp pumps can be flown in by military helicopter along with a generator that will run them. Then a crew can fuel and maintain a few times a day.

The military has 12' diameter 250,000 to 500,000 gpm pumps -

- plus the piping and manifolding -

- in a suitable 'form' they can deploy in an hour or two?

Outstanding ...

Remember, if you can't provide the kind of numbers I posted above, one, just one thundershow (let alone another hurricane) could render those efforts useless ...