Posted on 08/22/2005 11:13:09 AM PDT by Charlesj
Iraq draft says laws must conform to Islam -text
BAGHDAD, Aug 22 (Reuters) - A draft constitution for Iraq to be presented to parliament on Monday will make Islam "a main source" for legislation and ban laws that contradict religious teachings, members of the parliamentary drafting panel said.
(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.netscape.cnn.com ...
Is there any definitive codification of sharia?
Nope. It depends on who's interpreting the Quran, Hadith and Sunna, all of which are used to determine law. The veracity of Hadith (stories of Mohammed's sayings) and Sunna (stories of Mohammed's deeds) are graded generally on how believable they are, how well they fit into the collector's view of what Islam should be, and how far back close to Mohammed they can be traced. So in making Shari'a, a Mulla gets to pick the stories that fit his point of view, then he gets to pick how he'll interpret those stories. Obviously, this leaves lots of room for things to get twisted.
Also, not all Muslims believe they are authoritative, and different Muslims accept different Hadith and Sunna. For example, Sunnis trust anything coming from Aisha, as they see her as good and wise, while Shiites despise her as the jealous, unfaithful usurper of authority.
It's kind of funny, because the Quran says others will come later to fabricate lies about Mohammed, and that can easily be taken to refer to Hadith and Sunna. The worst part is that their religion says the Quran is "complete, perfect and fully detailed," so why even the need for Hadith and Sunna? I see a simple need: for people to twist the religion to their point of view.
And that has what to do about marriage? Anyway, you should look at your own Bible before talking about women in Islam. I believe Jesus warned against doing things like that.
And again, a woman CANNOT initiate divorce proceedings.
They can according to the Quran, although maybe not in these created societies. I showed you.
The Hadith Collections compiled by the Sunnah writers are said to explain the quran. They are, together with the quran, islam.
As believed by some, not all. The Quran warned against these stories being told about Mohammed. A minority of Muslims outright rejects all Hadith and Sunna.
Do you accept, as a muslim, this hadith?
Who said I was a Muslim? I've just been studying it for 14 years.
Do muslims not believe that the hadith are supposedly also "inspired" oral traditions that explain the quran?
Depends on which Muslim you're talking about and which Hadith you're referring to. Bukhari was a misogynist.
Oh yes it is, in fact much worse than you are willing to admit, or accept.
The problem is that Islamic law is what the local mullahs want it to be, not necessarily what's in the Quran, or even Hadith or Sunna if you believe them. I am talking about the Quran, not the mullahs.
I didn't think so.
How then do you think they can resolve mutually exclusive claims regarding the Constitution? After all, the application of law in a 'rule of law' context is definative, while the practice of sharia is somewhat subjective.
Are you suggesting this nod to sharia is camoflage, or perhaps something else?
I can't say what it is, only what I hope. I hope they lay down basic law protecting the rights of women and minorities so that (for lack of a better word, I apologize) assh*le Muslim fundamentalists will be restrained in their wild, human-rights violating interpretations as they use the Quran to build their Islamic laws on top of that human rights base.
Are you suggesting women are only defined by marriage, or in relation to men?
Anyway, you should look at your own Bible before talking about women in Islam. I believe Jesus warned against doing things like that.
What are you refering to?
At first blush, it seems to me you're hoping they can fit a square peg in a round hole. Are there any historical precedents you can think of? (excluding benign authoritarinists which wouldn't be relevant to the question)
No, I picked marriage as an example of how women's rights are infringed in some of these Muslim societies with no basis in the Quran. Can't drive? Aisha rode into battle! How's that for precedent for women driving?
What are you refering to?
Over two hundred passages in the Bible showing women to be unclean, subordinate, inferior, possession, or simply not worth adressing. Paul's pen was particularly venomous.
None. But I think it's possible. Democracy was a crazy experiment once.
That's fine, but it hardly establishes the point you set out to make; that is any possibility of equality for women under koranic guidance. Surely you aren't suggesting that the sharia standard for establishing rape is in any sense acceptable?
Over two hundred passages in the Bible showing women to be unclean, subordinate, inferior, possession, or simply not worth adressing. Paul's pen was particularly venomous.
Without particulars you're making nothing but gratuitous assertions, which I remind you can be just as gratuitously dismissed. I dare say avoiding direct comparisons of mohammeden vs. Judeo/Christian (even Pauline) statements regarding the role of women is at best disingenuous, and at worst duplicitous.
I certainly agree with you on this point, but it must be understood that our founders were well aware they were subordinating sectarianism to law for the benefit of free exercise to all. If Iraq misses this crucial point in their Constituional deliberations, they'll be tilting at windmills.
You might want to review. Here is what initiated our conversation:
Me: "Most middle eastern countries do not allow women to drive, non-muslims have no rights in court against muslims, non-muslims must pay the jizya tax, and women don't have the same property rights or divorce rights as men do."
You: "And that has what to do about marriage?"
You might want to look through your original posts before you reply.
You: "Anyway, you should look at your own Bible before talking about women in Islam."
I will repeat it AGAIN. The topic is islamic law. Don't stray off topic. Are you deliberately trying to change the topic?
Me: "And again, a woman CANNOT initiate divorce proceedings.
You: "They can according to the Quran, although maybe not in these created societies. I showed you."
No, you didn't. Again, and again, NO SHE CANNOT INITIATE DIVORCE PROCEEDINGS. I showed you...again, you might want to review those posts.
You: "Who said I was a Muslim? I've just been studying it for 14 years." Studying it for 14 years? Studying it for 14 years? Judging by your posts, I'd like to say, I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.
You: "A minority of Muslims outright rejects all Hadith and Sunna."
What is your proof for the above assertation and why have we not heard of them before? What would happen in a country like Iran for the above muslims? Blasphemy charges? Labeled as apostates? Are they considered "good" muslims. Come now...
"Depends on which Muslim you're talking about and which Hadith you're referring to."
So, in other words, you're saying they may "pick and choose?" No, I think not.
You: "The problem is that Islamic law is what the local mullahs want it to be, not necessarily what's in the Quran, or even Hadith or Sunna if you believe them. I am talking about the Quran, not the mullahs."
No, absolutely false. Islamic law IS indeed based on the quran and not the "wishes of the local mullah".
Please, do not enter into this discussion until you are able to post the correct information.
I documented the inequality of women under sharia...'
Dear Mr. President.
I think you're a great man, and a great President- but it's pretty clear to everyone that this is ABOUT RELIGION.
Islam was the problem BEFORE the war, it is the problem DURING the war, and it will be a problem AFTER the war.
To remake Iraq in image of Saudi Arabia where no churches are allowed and women cannot drive?
I picked a subset of the topic because I didn't want to be writing all day long.
No, you didn't. Again, and again, NO SHE CANNOT INITIATE DIVORCE PROCEEDINGS. I showed you...again, you might want to review those posts.
Have you even done basic research? They even have specific words for wife-initiated divorce, khul' or haqq-i-faskh, depending on the situation. That's considering the wife wasn't smart enough to write divorce conditions into the marriage contract (like a Western pre-nup).
Studying it for 14 years? Judging by your posts, I'd like to say, I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.
At least I know a woman can divorce her husband.
What is your proof for the above assertation and why have we not heard of them before?
Here's some proof. Not we, but you haven't heard about them because a) they don't blow up buildings and b) you don't bother to research.
So, in other words, you're saying they may "pick and choose?"
Yes, they do, and they interpret them differently. Do you even know that there are different schools of jurisprudence in Islam? How much weight do you think a Shiite gives a Hadith with Aisha as the source?
No, absolutely false. Islamic law IS indeed based on the quran
The law is indeed based on the interpretation of the Quran, Hadith and Sunna. That interpretation will be done by those in power according to their idea of how things should be.
I'll give you a simple example: women being covered. Off the same text, different societies have different rules as to whether they should be covered and how much. You go from the liberal Turkey (not enforced) to Taliban-controlled Afghanistan (get beaten or worse). The Taliban remember the rule for covering, but forget the rule that you can't force her to do so.
This from the poster who claims islamic law isn't "so bad".
You are deliberately attempting to obscure the truth.
Under sharia, women CANNOT initiate divorce, and you know it. Women are treated unequally, and your verbal gymnastics attempting to claim otherwise have simply reinforced my statements.
I have done my research. You are in full taqiyya mode...
You:
"Here's some proof. Not we, but you haven't heard about them because a) they don't blow up buildings and b) you don't bother to research."
You've provided NO PROOF. While I cite texts and back up all I have stated, you submit....nothing.
It is clear you are a muslim who dislikes any scrutiny or troubling passages of your faith...
The following describes your tactics. Oh yes, they have too been used before, most unsuccessfully:
YOU: "Yes, they do, and they interpret them differently. Do you even know that there are different schools of jurisprudence in Islam? How much weight do you think a Shiite gives a Hadith with Aisha as the source?"
*"Some Muslims use the weak Hadith defense, because they approach Muhammad with their own wishful presuppositions. So, they automatically reject any Hadith that does not meet the standard of their uncritical assumptions"
*Now, it is true there were many Hadiths that were rejected by ancient traditional Muslim scholars. They rejected them because these traditions were fabricated (maudu’) for political reasons long after Muhammad died. But these were discarded long before the trusted collections were compiled.
Hmm, if a muslim rejects hadith antiRepub, it would make him a heretic, a blasphemer, and earn him a death sentence.
*"Many Muslims today are using what is called a “weak Hadith defense” to divert the criticism non-Muslims are heaping upon Muhammad based upon the behavior that is recorded in these ancient and traditional Islamic sources."
Which is what you've done.
Regarding all those muslims who don't accept the hadith...
It's crap...they do if they consider themselves muslims.
*". The Sahih Al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim collections are considered to be authentic historical records by orthodox Muslims. So, a weak Hadith defense is unjustified when these sources are used to critique Muhammad sayings and behavior."
"The law is indeed based on the interpretation of the Quran, Hadith and Sunna. That interpretation will be done by those in power according to their idea of how things should be."
No, absolutely false...islamic law in NOT based on the whims of individuals.
*"When a Hadith meets all the proper qualifications for a sahih Hadith, it must be accepted by all Muslims. A sahih Hadith is an obligatory Hadith—it is the Prophet’s Sunnah. It must be acted upon according to the consensus of the Muslim scholarship. The sahih Hadith are those used as the sources of Islamic jurisprudence (Usul al-Fiqh). They are used as proof in cases involving Islamic Shari’ah law. They make our observance of Islam’s Five Pillars possible."
YOU: "They even have specific words for wife-initiated divorce, khul' or haqq-i-faskh, depending on the situation."
Ha! Is that what you think Khul' or haqq-i-faskh means? So your "scholarly information" of islam is based on the most hits on a google search.
Don't waste my time. You don't have a clue.
*The above is from the muslim website: http://www.muhammadanism.org/
No, I'm saying it isn't as bad as the ignorant claim. All religious law is bad because it is based on ancient texts that don't evolve with society. Women being equal is a fairly new concept, so don't be surprised when total equality is not represented in the old religions.
However, the Quran was a big improvement over the status of women at the time. Even if he wanted to, I don't think Mohammed could have done much more and still have his religion be accepted. As it was there was an outcry over the limit on wives and the prohibition of capricious divorce, leaving the women out in the cold.
You've provided NO PROOF. While I cite texts and back up all I have stated, you submit....nothing.
Actually, you haven't submitted anything in the Quran stating that a woman can't initiate divorce.
Hmm, if a muslim rejects hadith antiRepub, it would make him a heretic, a blasphemer, and earn him a death sentence.
According to the Muslims who do accept them for their various reasons. A majority of Christians don't accept Catholic canon, and long ago they would have been labeled as heretics, subject to death. Does that make them wrong?
No, absolutely false...islamic law in NOT based on the whims of individuals.
Then why does it vary so much from place to place?
Ha! Is that what you think Khul' or haqq-i-faskh means?
Even your beloved Hadith recognizes them.
Some examples of Sharia, (islamic law):
Below are some quotes or summaries from a newsletter called Compass Direct:http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-kills-islamic-law-shariah.htm
-Saudi Arabia, April 24, 1998, According to Amnesty International's "Behind Closed Doors" report on Saudi Arabia released in November 1997, "... the inhabitants of Saudi Arabia remain denied the most basic human rights, while the government spares no effort to conceal its appalling human rights record from public scrutiny." The report noted that Saudi's religious police, the Mutawa'een, are "invested with the authority to arrest and detain, particularly with regard to Christian worshippers."
-Saudi Arabia July 17, 1998, Under Saudi Arabia's strict interpretation of Islamic law, observance of any religious worship other than Islam is illegal and Christians can be arrested for either distributing Christian materials or attending private meetings for Christian worship.
-Iraq, June 15, 2001, Despite Iraq's secularized government, apostasy from Islam remains a criminal violation of Islamic "sharia" law, ultimately requiring the death penalty. Officially a secular state, Iraq legally protects the freedom of its Christian minority to worship "in churches of established denominations," although the law forbids them to "proselytize or hold meetings outside church premises."
-Nigeria , June 15, 2001, Katsina state, with a population of more than 3.7 million people, became an Islamic state on August 1, 2000, when the state government adopted "sharia," the Islamic legal system. Church leaders have been told to relocate to a designated "Christian zone. Of the 41 churches in Katsina city, 38 have been ordered to relocate.
-Nigeria, August 24, 2001, Bauchi Governor Alhaji Ahmed Adamu Muazu declared on June 1 that Islamic (sharia) law applied to all persons in the state, not Muslims only. On June 4, Muazu assigned an Islamic court judge to Tafawa Balewa and Bogoro Local Government Areas to enforce Islamic law in the predominantly Christian villages.
EXAMPLES OF SOME SHARIA LAWS. http://www.freemuslims.org/document.php?id=41
. A Muslim cannot be put to death for the murder of an unbeliever. (According to clause #14 of Prophet's Medina-Charter, proudly claimed by Sharia-proponents as "The First Written Constitution in the World".
2. A Muslim man is allowed to beat his wife or wives. - Qura'anic dictum.
3. A Muslim man is allowed to have four wives at one time. - Qura'anic dictum
4. A Muslim man can divorce his wife or wives instantaneously. Then he can marry a new set of wives and continue the cycle. - Corollary of Qura'anic dictum.
5. A Muslim woman must pay money to the husband by court orders to have the marriage dissolved. - Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum..
6. If a divorced couple wants to remarry each other, the wife must marry another person, must have complete sex with him and must be divorced by him willingly. - Qura'anic dictum.
7. The evidence required in a case of adultery is that of four Muslim adult men - Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum.
8. Women's testimony is not accepted in cases of adultery or in any capital offence. - Faulty human development.
9. Evidence of a female singer and slave (male or female) is not admissible. - Faulty human development.
10. Testimony of a non-Muslim that has been punished for false accusation is inadmissible. If s/he later becomes a Muslim, her/his evidence is then admissible. -Faulty human development.
11. The Judge of the Court shall be a Muslim. The Judge may be a non-Muslim only if the accused is a non-Muslim. -Faulty human development.
12. Adoption is not allowed in Sharia. - Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum.
13. Custody of children goes to mother as long as the kids need care, normally 9 years for boys and 7 for girls, after which the father takes over. But if the mother does not pray or gets married, the kids immediately go to the father. - Faulty human development.
14. Women inherit half of men. - Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum..
15. Women's witness is half of men's in business transactions. - Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum..
16. If a woman is killed, the blood money (the money a killer has to pay to the family of the killed on demand to get acquitted) is half of that of a Muslim man. - Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum.
17. Apostates (Muslims who leave Islam) automatically get death penalty. If not available for killing, their marriage is dissolved and they cannot inherit from Muslim parents or children. - Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum.
18. Muslim men can marry Christian and Jews women but Muslim women can marry only a Muslim man. - Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum.
19. A Muslim virgin cannot marry without permission of her male guardian.- Faulty human development on Qura'anic dictum.
20. A man can marry a woman for a fixed time, from few hours to several years (Mu'ta Marriage, - Sharia of Shia sect.). Rich men from the Middle East travel to Southern India to take advantage of this law on financially poor women, so do rich Iranian men on their women. The misery of those women and children born out of this practice are beyond comprehension. - Faulty human development.
Check out Iraq's new constitution. This will be forbidden, although the law will come from Islam.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.