Posted on 08/03/2005 4:51:43 PM PDT by RobFromGa
A simple question...
So, under the FairTaxI get to keep my whole paycheck, prices for everything I will buy will stay the same even with the taxes included, and I get a prebate check from the govt every month. And businesses pay no taxes.
Where is the extra money coming from...
What is wrong with this reasoning below?
1. Right now the government collects $X in the form of all taxes.
2. All taxes are really paid for by consumers in the end result, either directly, or in the cost of their purchases which allow businesses to collect money in order to pay taxes. Companies do not really pay taxes they jsut collect them and pass them on.
3. The FairTax will collect the same $X per year in the form of taxes but using a different method.
4. Under the FairTax, the price paid for goods will not rise because getting rid of all the taxes built into goods will cause the prices to drop, then the FairTax will add onto the new lower price, resulting in the same price paid by consumers.
5. So, for a given taxpayer, shopping (consumption) will be revenue neutral. Ie. Prices are the same as before.
6. And each given taxpayer will get a "prebate" check every month that they are not getting now.
7. And each taxpayer will pay no taxes on capital gains, or on savings.
8. And, each taxpayer will no longer pay any taxes on income, or payroll taxes.
9. And, there will be no Fair Taxes on any purchases made for a business.
Are these all true so far?
Again, I get to keep my whole paycheck, prices for everything I will buy will stay the same even with the taxes included, and I get a prebate check from the govt every month.
Where is the extra money coming from???
I thought you weren't going to buy the book? You didn't want to give Boortz any of your money. Or did you just do it the cheap way and let somebody else buy it and read their copy. Or did your buddies on K-Street give you a copy?
You pay the tax on the room since your are 'consuming' it as opposed to sub-letting that room to another 'consumer'.
"They simultaneously claim your paycheck will go up by the amount of income tax that you no longer have to pay"
INDIVIDUAL income taxes wittheld from paychecks.
"... and that prices will come down by the 'hidden taxes' (i.e. producers' income taxes) that will be eliminated.
CORPORATE income taxes that businesses no longer have to pay.
"There are many illogical claims of the so-called 'Fair Tax' proponents, but there is one."
No, there is zero. There is no double counting at all if you understand some basics about how the tax system works today. Do you have any other examples of the "many illogical claims"?
Is that the best you can do?
Bogus.
You are totally mistaken about the origin of the inclusive tax rate (even the geezer's cut-n-paste shows where the rates come from). But even so, so what? I didn't make any point about the FAIRTAX 29.87% exclusive tax rate other than it's too damn high.
Their effect on the economy and how much money, other than that from their opportionment of income taxes, is disproportionate by any meassure.
How many more times am I going to have to restate this? This isn't rocket science.
Show me where this card is referred to in the bill, please.
Take that up with your state. The feds can't do anything about that.
Are you SURE it's a Trillion?????? That seems like 1/3 to half the budget......
I have been assured by every single FairTax person before that goods and services purchased for business use would not incur this tax. Including by ancient_geezer.
If this is the case, then this could be a huge additional expense on businesses.
"Boortz books claims 26% embedded cost for most service businesses."
Many service businesses are comprised of self employed individuals who have to pay a little over 15% self employment tax. I think that accounts for the bulk of that estimate.
Boortz is an opportunist looking to cash in on a book....the big obstacle to their plan is the poor people and he and Linder just say ---"Well, them Po' folks then won't have to pay a damn thang, then." Boortz will blow in any direction the conservative tide takes him. Why, he's even gonna DONATE the proceeds to his wife's charitable organization...Guess who makes out on that deal with the CURRENT tax laws??????????
Except the same old lies.
I've had it with you guys. Tell me, why would they be lying? They have nothing to gain personally from the Fair Tax, versus you guys who apparently think you have everything to lose. Who is more likely to lie?
balrog666 is nothing but lies.
They don't mention a card, they state in HR 25, Section 102
`(1) BUSINESS AND EXPORT PURPOSES- No tax shall be imposed under section 101 on any taxable property or service purchased for--
`(A) a business purpose in a trade or business, or
...
`(b) Business Purposes- For purposes of this section, the term `purchased for a business purpose in a trade or business' means purchased by a person engaged in a trade or business and used in that trade or business--
`(1) for resale,
`(2) to produce, provide, render, or sell taxable property or services, or
`(3) in furtherance of other bona fide business purposes.
Items (2) and (3) would seem to exclude business related expenses from the Fair Tax, as I have been told. I was also told previously by ancient_geezer I think that there would be a card to show to retail locations to bypass the tax for business purposes.
see 316, I think you are mistaken.
Be aware, RobFromGa, that the poster we know as Nightie is a virulent opponent doing nothing but attacking the FairTax and/or supporters at everry opportunity. He is not really supportive of any real tax plan and, when pressed about it, will turn to a theoretical idea of a VAT or (usually) a flat tax that doesn't exist so that he may continue his bob and weave games.
The items he presents are carefully selected (and selectively presented) while he continually whines when those spporting the FairTax post links and other information that are biased FOR the FairTax. The difference is one of honesty since the supporters make no bones about supporting the FairTax, while Nightie pretends to be the only knowledgeable source of FairTax data (and it is all anti-FairTax); even the snippets he extracts from FairTax sources are cleverly selected and posted often to illustrate the opposite of the actual case.
Just read his material with a discerning eye. You will note that is typically from a source having some bias either against the FairTax or favoring the status quo (the Treasury "running the numbers" is an illustration of a group clearly having a bias toward the status quo since the IRS as part of Treasury represents an $11 billion chunk of the Treasury political turf).
For these reasons, Nightie - and several others not too hard to spot - are referred to as "SQL" (Status Quo Lover) guys not because they necessarily are for the present system, but because all their actions and efforts do is attack the FairTax having the effect of helping protect the status quo (intentionally or not).
As to Nightie's post #61 he points you to, it has been, verbatim, posted by him several times on these threads - and refuted just as many times. If you'd like, more detailed refutations could be posted, but for now I'll post only this one from an earlier thread:
Duties and tariffs can be countered or contested in the world trade courts. The fair tax does the same thing only much better. Currently the costs of tax is built into the product. When you pay your income tax, that money actually came from the end consumer. It got built into the price of the product.
Under the current system, the import product competes price wise with the domestic product which has the tax built in. Only, when the import product is sold, the tax portion of the price heads out of the country. The import product can either be priced lower or the profit to the producer is higher. Either way, domestic goods and services are subject to unfair price pressure.
Under the fair tax, the tax portion of the sale stays in the US. The import now nets the same total as the domestic product, only the import has the added expense of transportation and the taxes in the originating country. And what can they do to respond? Even if they implemented the same policy in their country, the trade imbalance still kills them. The net result is jobs moving back into the US as a result of the tax system. Really, the Teamsters and United Auto Workers should be out front leading the parade for the fair tax.
`(d) SELLER RELIEVED OF LIABILITY IN CERTAIN CASES- In the case of any taxable property or service which is sold untaxed pursuant to section 102(a), the seller shall be relieved of the duty to collect and remit the tax imposed under section 101 on such purchase if the seller--
`(1) received in good faith, and retains on file for the period set forth in section 509, a copy of a registration certificate from the purchaser, and
`(2) did not, at the time of sale, have reasonable cause to believe that the buyer was not registered pursuant to section 502.
[snip]
`SEC. 504. REGISTRATION CERTIFICATES.
`The sales tax administering authority shall issue certificates of registration to registered sellers and such other certificates as are necessary or may prove useful in the administration of the taxes imposed by this subtitle.
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