Posted on 07/25/2005 5:07:52 AM PDT by MadIvan
The Brazilian man shot dead by police in south London, who mistook him for a suicide bomber, had been in Britain on an out-of-date visa, officials say.
Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, may have run from police because of his visa situation, BBC correspondents say.
The electrician had come to the UK on a student visa, which allows people to work for a small number of hours.
Relatives of Mr Menezes are considering suing over the Stockwell Tube shooting, saying police will have "to pay".
Meanwhile, detectives are still hunting for the men who attempted to blow up three London Tube trains and a bus last Thursday.
Three men have been arrested so far, but it is thought the four would-be bombers are still free and may have access to explosives.
Meanwhile, Chris Fox, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, gave his support to the Metropolitan Police's "shoot-to-kill" policy with potential suicide bombers, in the wake of Friday's shooting of Mr Menezes.
"Shoot-to-kill is very good headline but, in fact, what we have to do is have a series of tactics which range from disruption to the very, very final moment when you have to shoot and the aim is to prevent the criminal or suspect causing harm to other people," he said.
Under surveillance
However, the victim's cousin, Alex Pereira, who is based in London, said: "[The police] have to pay for [Friday's killing] in many ways, because if they do not, they are going to kill many people, they are going to kill thousands of people.
"They just kill the first person they see, that's what they did.
"They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone."
Mr Menezes was killed after fleeing armed police as he travelled to work.
He had been followed by police from his block of flats in Tulse Hill, which was under surveillance in the hunt for the group behind Thursday's attempted bombings.
Mr Menezes had boarded the number 2 bus to Stockwell.
Police said his padded jacket had heightened suspicions about his journey. He was shot as he ran on to a train.
Heavy coats or clothing are often worn by suicide bombers in other parts of the world to help them disguise their bombs.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission has opened an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the death.
In Brazil, relatives are demanding answers to why Mr Menezes ran and why he was shot by police.
Cousin Maria do Socorro, speaking before details about the visa emerged, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I think they acted incompetently, like amateurs.
"You would think the British police would be prepared, but they are panicking and seeing everyone as a suspect.
"If you are going to have a war on terror, you have got to use brains to fight it not just brute force."
Friends of Mr Menezes in London said he had recently returned to Brazil for eight months to be with his father, who was being treated for cancer.
'Highly trained'
Fausto Soares, 26, said Mr Menezes had been sending money to pay for the treatment and was concerned how the family would now cope financially.
Former Prime Minister Sir John Major has defended the police's actions.
Speaking on the Today programme, Sir John said: "These officers are very highly trained. Very few of them are permitted to carry arms, but in that second they had no-one to help them, no-one to turn to.
"They had to make a decision. Do we take this dreadful decision to shoot, or do we face the risk that conceivably, if our worst fears are right, a bomb could be detonated that could kill people, including them, in the next second or so?"
Bush's fault......
I agree. I think that the police did the right thing and I hope that the officers do not beat themselves up.
What are the ROE respecting when the suspect had refused police orders to stop, had jumped a subway turnstile and exhibits behaviour that gives every reason to suspect that he is about to set off a bomb in a crowded subway car?
I suspect that in similar circumstances the NYPD would have shot him in the head, and probably before he got to the car.
Consider the number of shots fired by NY coppers at a suspect who was reaching for his wallet in a dark stairwell and compare the downside risk in that situation to what was confronting the London coppers, especially the downside risk to civilian bystanders.
A dog smells his own arse first.
The retrospectroscope is a marvellous instrument. It enables much clearer thinking about what you would have done had you had all that after-the-fact knowledge and several days instead of mere seconds to comtemplate the appropriate response.
On top of everything else, he apparently had a belt or pack on with wires sticking out of it. According to his cousin, this was how he carried his electrician's materials. He also carried them in a backpack at times.
At least one of the witnesses on the train mentioned seeing wires sticking out from under the guy's coat and was convinced that he was wearing a bomb. I think he probably was wearing the coat to cover them up, because even if he had no ill intentions, nobody could be so stupid as to think that wearing a pack full of wires and electrical parts after a major bombing was not going to create suspicion. It did, and I'm sure when the police saw this, they were convinced he was going to detonate.
He came out of the house, which was under surveillance, and was followed from it by the police.
Yeah, I had thought of that already, because the reports were that the police were "plain clothes", but this expired visa explanation, sounds like his real reason for running.
It's very unfortunate.
But the fact is that this shooting would not pass muster under the US rules. You can't shoot someone just because they are running away from you in this country.
I don't know what your rules of engagement are in Britain, but every cop in the US knows that. I wonder if the guys who made this mistake even know what the rules of engagement are. That might be the problem.
When you set up an elite group of armed cops in a four day time period to deal with an emergency like this, it would not be surprising to me if they took a few shortcuts.
The fact that your cops are trained in the use of firearms doesn't impress me. Your average American cop was trained in the use of firearms from the time he was a teenager.
I'm not saying that it would be completely impossible for something like this to happen in the US. I'm just saying that it would be extremely unusual. Tens of thousands of cops carry guns in the US every day. An incident as embarrassing as this might happen a few times a year.
It took this elite group of cops just one week.
So what did the family have to say about him being there illegally? Had he been following the law, he wouldn't have been there.
Don't get me wrong, I am not condoning the shooting; It just seems (as here also), that's it's ok to be illegal and somehow that doesn't play into situations.
We need to wake up...
You saw the response to the tour bus in Manhattan?
Had one of those people been in a heavy coat, fled toward the subway, and jumped on a crowded train, I can envision the same outcome being a distinct possibility here in the good ole U.S.A.
I don't see this as a screw-up.
Men with bombs are blowing up train stations and killing people.
A man in heavy coat in summer comes out of a building under surveillance for terrorism.
When told to stop, he runs into train station.
He jumps the turnstyle and heads into a trian.
Is there any other logical outcome other than he turns out to have a bomb and kills lots of people?
The officers did exactly the right thing.
The death was unfortunate, but there was no reasonable alternative for the police.
Yeah, it also wouldn't have happened here because illegals can't be touched anyway...profiling, no matter where they're from.
I go to Penn Station, G. Central and Union Square; The cops I know would have done the same thing in those circumstances...some of them have been waiting since 9-11 to cap a terrorist.
We do need to wake up. Just because the person was from Brazil doesn't mean automatically that he had no involvement in organized crime and/or terror. It also doesn't mean that he did, but I would like to see if there's an investigation if there's more substance to his peculiar behavior.
Sure, I feel for them too. But the fact is, and this is the only point I'm making, that the British aren't adequately prepared to deal with situations where guns are required because they just don't have the experience handling guns that we have.
That's what happens when you ban guns.
And I don't think an American cop would shoot a guy simply because he comes out of a building they are watching and runs toward the subway, even if we did just have a subway bombing.
And how many suicide bobmbers in a subway have we had here? Look. American poice have not had to deal with things like this. We've shot kids who were playing with toy guns..look at any shooting incident and you'll probably find that of the rounds expended, a high percentage miss. Although police in the US carry weapons, most will never use a gun unless it's for annual qualification. I was on a swat team that qualified 4 times a year and I can tell you we would have probably done the same thing to that guy under the circumstances
So now, this idiot was there ILLEGALY and the family says police will have to pay? Give me a break.
You said it.
Not to pour salt on the wounds of the cousin who's constantly in the press about it, who can't seem to understand...how about we check and see if they're legal while we're at it.
Did they ever explain why the victim was in the building that was under surveillance?
If there had been a bomb on him and the police had hesitated and it exploded, killing a lot of people, would you be posting the same way?
Don't beat up the British system. The same thing could happen here, and what's more, the officers would likely all have to go to sensitivity training.
The dead man at the very least made bad choices and had horrible luck to boot. The police did all they could in an honest attempt to save hundreds, if not thousands, of innocent lives. Everything pointed to this guy being what they thought he was. The armchair quarterbacks, who first claimed he knew no English, and then claimed he didn't run because he was a lawbreaker, are running out of excuses. The public has to assist in the War on Terror too - one way to do that is to cooperate with the authorities and think about consequences. No need for Britian to go wobbly over this - they acted justly and need to keep being tough in going after the murderers.
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