Terror on the dole (4-22-04)

Evening Standard ^ | 4-22-04 | David Cohen

[libertarianben]

Four young British Muslims in their twenties - a social worker, an IT specialist, a security guard and a financial adviser - occupy a table at a fast-food chicken restaurant in Luton. Perched on their plastic chairs, wolfing down their dinner, they seem just ordinary young men. Yet out of their mouths pour heated words of revolution.

[UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide]

Think "Cartago delenda est"!

My tag for some time.

[Fred Nerks]

Truth is the most powerful insecticide...

[Mylo]

This site is supposed to be Conservative, but all I hear is reactionaries. Religious fanatics kill 3,000 Americans and suddenly you want to junk the Constitutional liberties of freedom of religion, freedom of association, freedom of speech, equality under the law; and intern or exile U.S. citizens because of their religion, nuke holy sites of a billion people worldwide for the actions of a few, and "Nuke them till they glow, then shoot them in the dark".

Where is the Christian love? Sure Islam is spread at the point of a sword; Christianity was taught under the slavemasters lash (a whip for those of you in Rio Linda). Sure Islam instructs one to kill the infidel as well as to show mercy to the weak. But is it within your Christian philosophy to preach "death to the unbelievers"? Because that is all I'm hearing from you....

....SO CALLED CONSERVATIVES

And

....SO CALLED CHRISTIANS.

[Mylo]

Arab colonialists were mere PIKERS when compared to the great European colonialists empires who conquered almost the entire world. China and India, the two main population centers of the world, were ruled by one small island off the European coast. PIKERS!

Colonialists can be cruel, but Kipling insists it is for the best. What was your point?

[Dark Skies]

Religious fanatics kill 3,000 Americans and suddenly you want to junk the Constitutional liberties of freedom of religion, freedom of association, freedom of speech, equality under the law; and intern or exile U.S. citizens because of their religion, nuke holy sites of a billion people worldwide for the actions of a few, and "Nuke them till they glow, then shoot them in the dark".

Er...I don't think that has been said by me. Tell me a bit about yourself. I think you know about me. I am a devout Christian. What are you? Are you a trickster or are you honest (are you capable of real dialogue...or just "taqiyya")?

[SauronOfMordor]

Believers in Islam are also called upon to show mercy to the weak, not to deliberately target the weak. Those who deliberately target the weak are apostates to their faith.

Muslims are commanded to show mercy and generousity to other Muslims. Their duties towards infidels is quite different. They are commanded to fight the infidel, and killing innocents is acceptable collateral damage. You say you've read the Koran. Do you remember the following passages? :

From my copy of the Koran:
 

Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day ... until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low
            Surah IX:29

O ye who believe! Choose not for friends such of those who received the Scriptures before you
        Surah V:57

Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them captive, and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush...
        Surah IX:5

And slay them wherever ye find them ... Such is the reward of disbelievers.
        Surah II:191
 

The Sunnah is also a central document of Islam

Sunnah Volume 4, Book 52, Number 53:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet said, "Nobody who dies and finds good from Allah (in the Hereafter) would wish to come back to this world even if he were given the whole world and whatever is in it, except the martyr who, on seeing the superiority of martyrdom, would like to come back to the world and get killed again (in Allah's Cause)."

Sunnah Volume 4, Book 52, Number 63:

Narrated Al-Bara:

A man whose face was covered with an iron mask (i.e. clad in armor) came to the Prophet and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall I fight or embrace Islam first? "The Prophet said, "Embrace Islam first and then fight." So he embraced Islam, and was martyred. Allah's Apostle said, A Little work, but a great reward. "(He did very little (after embracing Islam), but he will be rewarded in abundance)."

The Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176:

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' "

The Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The (Final) Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 196:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 256:

Narrated As-Sab bin Jaththama:

The Prophet passed by me at a place called Al-Abwa or Waddan, and was asked whether it was permissible to attack the pagan warriors at night with the probability of exposing their women and children to danger. The Prophet replied, "They (i.e. women and children) are from them (i.e. pagans)." I also heard the Prophet saying, "The institution of Hima [sanctuary; inviolate zone] is invalid except for Allah and His Apostle."

[ translation: the women and children of infidels are acceptable "collateral damage". A Muslim has no need to avoid killing them while attacking infidels (as the Palestinian suicide bombers demonstrate repeatedly) ]

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 265:

Narrated Al-Bara bin Azib:

Allah's Apostle sent a group of the Ansar to Abu Rafi. Abdullah bin Atik entered his house at night and killed him while he was sleeping.

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 268:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle called,: "War is deceit".

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 271:

Narrated Jabir:

The Prophet said, "Who is ready to kill Ka'b bin Ashraf (i.e. a Jew)." Muhammad bin Maslama replied, "Do you like me to kill him?" The Prophet replied in the affirmative. Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say what I like." The Prophet replied, "I do (i.e. allow you)." [ie, it’s OK to use lies and deception to get close to an enemy you want to kill]

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 280:

Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri:

When the tribe of Bani Quraiza was ready to accept Sad's judgment, Allah's Apostle sent for Sad who was near to him. Sad came, riding a donkey and when he came near, Allah's Apostle said (to the Ansar), "Stand up for your leader." Then Sad came and sat beside Allah's Apostle who said to him. "These people are ready to accept your judgment." Sad said, "I give the judgment that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners." The Prophet then remarked, "O Sad! You have judged amongst them with (or similar to) the judgment of the King Allah."

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 283:

Narrated Abu Juhaifa:

I asked Ali, "Do you have the knowledge of any Divine Inspiration besides what is in Allah's Book?" 'Ali replied, "No, by Him Who splits the grain of corn and creates the soul. I don't think we have such knowledge, but we have the ability of understanding which Allah may endow a person with, so that he may understand the Qur'an, and we have what is written in this paper as well." I asked, "What is written in this paper?" He replied, "(The regulations of) blood-money, the freeing of captives, and the judgment that no Muslim should be killed for killing an infidel."

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 829:

Narrated Al-Mughira:

Sa'd bin Ubada said, "If I found a man with my wife, I would kill him with the sharp side of my sword." When the Prophet heard that he said, "Do you wonder at Sa'd's sense of ghira (self-respect)? Verily, I have more sense of ghira than Sa'd, and Allah has more sense of ghira than I."

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 57:

Narrated 'Ikrima:

Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

Volume 9, Book 84, Number 58:

Narrated Abu Burda:

Abu Musa said, "I came to the Prophet along with two men (from the tribe) of Ash'ariyin, one on my right and the other on my left, while Allah's Apostle was brushing his teeth (with a Siwak), and both men asked him for some employment. The Prophet said, 'O Abu Musa (O 'Abdullah bin Qais!).' I said, 'By Him Who sent you with the Truth, these two men did not tell me what was in their hearts and I did not feel (realize) that they were seeking employment.' As if I were looking now at his Siwak being drawn to a corner under his lips, and he said, 'We never (or, we do not) appoint for our affairs anyone who seeks to be employed. But O Abu Musa! (or 'Abdullah bin Qais!) Go to Yemen.'" The Prophet then sent Mu'adh bin Jabal after him and when Mu'adh reached him, he spread out a cushion for him and requested him to get down (and sit on the cushion). Behold: There was a fettered man beside Abu Muisa. Mu'adh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Muisa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and then reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Muisa requested Mu'adh to sit down but Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and His Apostle (for such cases) and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers and one of us said, 'I pray and sleep, and I hope that Allah will reward me for my sleep as well as for my prayers.'"

Islam is to be imposed by force.

* Mohammed said, "I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, and whoever says, " None has the right to be worshipped but Allah , his life and property will be saved by me." (otherwise it will not). Vol. 4:196

Apostasy is punishable by death.

* Mohammed said, "Whoever changes his Islamic religion, kill him." Vol. 9:57

Ethnic cleansing is practiced.

* Mohammed said to the Jews, "You should know that the earth belongs to Allah and His Apostle (Mohammed) and I want to expel you from this land (The Arabian Peninsula), so, if anyone owns property, he is permitted to sell it." Vol. 4:392

* Mohammed's last words at his deathbed were: "Turn the pagans (non-Muslims) out of the Arabian Peninsula." Vol. 5:716

Islamic lying:

What is Taqiyah?

He who disbelieves in Allah after his belief in Him, (is the liar) except he who is compelled while his heart remains steadfast with the faith (has nothing worry). But who opens his breast for infidelity; on these is wrath of Allah, and for them is a great torment.
--Qur’an, Surah 16 (an‑Nahl), verse 100

This verse of the Qur’an refers to the incident when 'Ammar bin Yasir (May Allah be pleased with both) had to utter some words against Islam to save himself from the Quraishite infidels.

The Qur'an clearly allows hiding one 's true faith when one is in danger of one's life. This rule is called taqiyah.

Question 1: What is the meaning of "Taqiyah"?
Answer: Its literal meaning is to safeguard; to defend; to fear; piety (because it saves one from the displeasure of Allah).

Question 2: What is its significance in Islamic termi­nology?
Answer: In Islamic terminology it means "to save life, honour. or property (either one's own or of other be­lievers) by hiding one's belief or religion".

I imagine the rule would apply in a lesser way to a Muslim who hides his jihad sympathies.

http://www.maaref-foundation.com/english/shia_education/shia/12.htm

APPENDIX I TAQIYAH Or DISSIMULATION

`Allamah Tabataba'i

One of the most misunderstood aspects of Shi'ism is the practice of dissimulation or taqiyah. With the. wider meaning of taqiyah. "to avoid or shun any kind of danger," we are not concerned here. Rather, our aim is to discuss that kind of taqiyah in which a man hides his religion or certain of his religious practices in situations that would cause definite or probable danger as a result of the actions of those who are opposed to his religion or particular religious practices.

Among followers of the different schools of Islam, Shi'ites are well known for their practice of taqiyah. In case of danger they dissimulate their religion and hide their particular religious and ritual practices from their opponents.

The sources upon which the Shi'ites base themselves in this question include the following verse of the Holy Quran: "Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers. Whoso doeth that hath no connection with Allah unless (it be) that ye but guard yourselves against them [tattaqu minhum. from the same root as taqiyah], taking (as it were) security [tuqatan. again from the same root as taqiyah]. Allah biddeth you beware (only) of Himself. Unto Allah is the journeying" (III, 28). As is clear from this sacred verse, God, the,Most Exalted, forbids with the utmost emphasis wilayah (meaning in this case friend- ship and amity to the extent that it affects one's life) with un- believers and orders man to be wary and have fear in such a situation.

In another place He says, "Whoso disbelieveth in Allah after his belief-save him who is forced thereto and whose heart is still content with Faith-but whoso findeth ease in disbelief: On them is wrath from Allah. Theirs will be an awful doom" (Quran, XVI, 106). As mentioned in both Sunni and Shi'ite sources this verse was revealed concerning `Ammar ibn Yasir. After the migration (hijrah) of the Prophet the infidels of Mecca imprisoned some of the Muslims of that city and tortured them, forcing them to leave Islam and to return to their former religion of idolatry. Included in this group who were tortured were Ammar and his father and mother. Ammar's parents refused to turn away from Islam and died under torture. But Ammar. in order to escape torture and death, outwardly left Islam and accepted idol worship, thereby escaping from danger. Having become free, he left Mecca secretly for Medina. In Medina he went before the Holy Prophet-upon whom be blessings and peace--and in a state of penitence and distress concerning what he had done asked the Prophet if by acting as he did he had fallen outside the sacred precinct of religion. The Prophet said that his duty was what he had accomplished. The above verse was then revealed.

The two verses cited above were revealed concerning particular cases but their meaning is such that they embrace all situations in which the outward expression of doctrinal belief and religious practice might bring about a dangerous situation. Besides these verses, there exist many traditions from the members of the Household of the Prophet ordering taqiyah when there is fear of danger.

Some have criticized Shi'ism by saying that to employ the practice of taqiyah in religion is opposed to the virtues of courage and bravery. The least amount of thought about this accusation will bring to light its invalidity, for taqiyah must be practiced in a situation where man faces a danger which he cannot resist and against which he cannot fight. Resistance to such a danger and failure to practice taqiyah in such circumstances shows rashness and foolhardiness. not courage and bravery. The qualities of courage and bravery can be applied only when there is at least the possibility of success in man's efforts. But before a definite or probable danger against which there is no possibility of victory throwing oneself before a cannon that is being fired or lying down on the tracks before an onrushing train-any action of this kind is nothing but a form of madness contrary to logic and common sense. Therefore, we can summarize by saying that taqiyah must be practiced only when there is a definite danger which cannot be avoided and against which there is no hope of a successful strug gle and victory.

The exact extent of danger which would make permissible the practice of taqiyah has been debated among different mujtahids of Shi'ism. In our view, the practice of taqiyah is permitted if there is definite danger facing one's own life or the life of one's family, or the possibility of the loss of the honor and virtue of one's wife or of other female members of the family,or the danger of the loss of one's material belongings to such an extent as to cause complete destitution and prevent a man from being able to continue to support himself and his family. In any case, prudence and the avoidance of definite or probable danger which cannot be averted is a general law of logic accepted by all people and applied by men in all the different phases of their lives.

[Fred Nerks]

While all forms of religious fanaticism are negative, only Islam raises slaughter of all Kafirs (non-Muslims) to a holy creed, it teaches Muslim to gloat over the killing of non-Muslims and celebrate their death. Hence Islam is the most demented and dangerous form of religious fanaticism. And it is not Islamic fanaticism that is to be blamed, for Islam itself is fanaticism. From its root to its fruit Islam is the most violent, and virulent form of this delusion that the unknown universe is a god and all those who do not accept this brand of fantasizing of the unknown universe have to be slaughtered. This is so since Islamic fanaticism was born in a barren and harsh desert environment that gave birth to the paranoid mentality of the Bedouin Arabs among whom was born Mohammed (yimach shmo ve-zichro - may his name and memory be obliterated), the founder of this blood-thirsty creed – Islam. This blood-thirsty Muslim mentality has trickled down to the newest convert to Islam be he or she Brown Black, Yellow or White. Most importantly it makes Islam the worst enemy of quest and science and of all human progress. While all religions are opposed to science as the Pope was to Galileo and Copernicus; but it is Islam which is the most blood-thirsty expression of this challenge of religion to reason. So Islam will have to be the first to be removed from the path of human progress and the reply to Islam to be effective would have to be more blood-thirsty and paranoid than Islam itself. Those opposed to Islam will have to be like the hunter who aims between the eyes of the man-eater tiger and shoots till the tiger is dead meat. The hunter bears no enmity with the tiger, but shoots him dispassionately, so that he himself can live, and NOT end up by becoming the dinner of the man-eater. This has to be the attitude, not based on a hate of Islam, but a determination to put a full and final end to Islam, so that Human society can progress without the hindrance of any religion obstructing its path.

http://www.hindutva.org/

[Dark Skies]

Yow...SOM...it's gonna take all of tomorrow to read your last post. But I'll get thru it eventually. I wonder if Mylo will go to the trouble.

There are some scientists who conduct experiments to prove their points...and there are others who do so to find the truth.

Which are you, Mylo?

Have you made allowance for the possibility that you are wrong?

[Fred Nerks]

How the bluff of Islam can be called, if we are to succeed in meeting the Muslim challenge to Human Civilization

All fanaticism is negative, all religious fanaticism is very negative and persistent – be it Hindu, Christian, Muslim or any other, and Islam is the most bloodthirsty expression of religious fanaticism; motivated as the Muslims are by the Instruction Manual of Terrorism – the Quran that has the ravings and rantings against the Kafirs (unbelievers) from the world’s most successful terrorist and the founding father of organized terrorism; Prophet Mohammed-ibn-Abdallah.

Reading about the Fidayeen attacks by Homicide bombers posing as a Jewish Rabbis, ordinary travellers in Jerusalem or as security guards and construction workers in Iraq, should be an eye opener at the Pentagon and the Oval office about the Muslim mind. The Muslim Homicide (or rather Genocide) Fidayeen bombers are now dead and so they can cause no more harm to anyone. This gives us insight into a morbid, but very real fact that – “A good Muslim, is a dead Muslim.” Many would recoil while reading such morbid-sounding statements. But all the Israeli schoolchildren and bus passengers killed were done to death by Muslims who also killed themselves in the bargain, the hijackers of the airliners on 9/11 could cause that apocalyptic destruction, because they too decided to die while killing others. Apart from 9/11, the Riyadh, Baghdad, Jerusalem, Casablanca, Karachi, Mumbai, Bali, Chechnya Bomb blasts ..and many more to come, all prove the same point.

A Muslim is in the business of killing – killing himself/herself while killings others of his/her species. If the human sanity is to survive Islam, then the bluff of Islam needs to be called. And it can be called only when Islam and all its believers face the threat and real prospect of being sent into the stillness of death. A stillness from where they could do no more harm to anyone else. In this scenario at times some innocents may get killed. Can’t help it when the scenario dictates that you either “kill or be killed”.

Those who want succeed in fighting the Jihad, have to out-match the boldness and paranoid commitment of the Muslims by declaring that their singular mission is to wipe out Islam from the face of this planet whatever that may cost in terms of human lives...

http://www.hindutva.org/

[Radix]

I do not have time for debate or even dialogue. I won't for a time either, but your posts (Tag included) stand out as I did a quick perusal of the FR tonight as I was taking a moment to see reactions concerning this mornings events.

Here is something that you might want to consider looking at.

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=4432

[Dark Skies]

This fellow does not know Jesus or care to. He is either an atheiest or a Moslem.

He is the skunk at the garden party. PU! And I like skunks.

[Mylo]

Yes, and the Bible instructions for the conquest of the unbelievers was to slay all the women who have known men, and all the males down to the infant child, then take the girls who had not known men and to sell them into slavery. Slaves were to be taken from the nations that surround, and a coreligionist was not to be treated harshly as a slave and freed on the seventh year. For blessed shall he be who taketh the Babylonian's little ones and smash their heads upon the stone, Psalms tells us.

What is your point? Both books incite violence and encourage conversion of the unbeliever. As far as actual warfare we (if as one of European descent I can say "we" to things neither of us ever did) successfully kicked them out of Spain, held the line in Eastern Europe, and successfully invaded them for a few hundred years around the 12th Century. We crushed the Ottoman Empire and carved them up into bite size pieces and once again Outre-mar ("over the sea" what the Crusaders called the 'Holy Land' to those of you in Rio Linda) is ruled by the Jews. Israel is a great ally of the USA, and we love them for being with us when everyone else in the region was backing the Russian bear.

But loving Israel comes at a price because it pisses off Islamic religious fanatics. These guys are a joke, their armies fold like a lawn chair, their economies are a joke consisting of one or two resource (oil,opium), they make nothing, one half of their population is busy keeping down the other half down. While we are teaching our children how to build buildings and build bridges, they are teaching their children how to kill themselves while blowing up buildings and bridges. Terrorism is mostly a nuisance weapon, as London this morning demonstrates. And because of this you want to junk the Constitution?

[NexusBlue]

Terrorism is mostly a nuisance weapon, as London this morning demonstrates.

Nuisance? Who are you, John F'king Kerry?

Tell that to the loved ones of those that died.

[Dark Skies]

Hey Blue...good to see you!

This guy is an odd one considering what happened today. Lack of conscience!

[Fred Nerks]

"But loving Israel comes at a price because it pisses off Islamic religious fanatics..."

It's all the fault of the Jooooos...is that what you are trying to say?

'First the Saturday People then the Sunday People' doesn't ring a bell with you?

[NexusBlue]

What is your point? Both books incite violence and encourage conversion of the unbeliever.

Ummm, Muzzies believe the Koran contains the actual words of their rock god, and is to be followed to the letter. Get it now?

Christianity went through an enlightenment. Still with me?

Imams from Islams holiest sites preach jihad, and pray for the victory the mujahadeen. Do I have to spell that out for you?

Muslims see Mohammed (pig entrails be upon him) as the perfect man, who they are to emulate. He was a genocidal mass-murdering pedophile. Still want to compare that goat-abuser to Jesus?

Who still practices a barbaric ideology in the 21st century and is out there murdering thousands, in the footsteps of their cults founder?

Are you really this ignorant or are you pretending?

[NexusBlue]

It's good to be back, with a vengeance.

[RebelTex]

"And because of this you want to junk the Constitution?"

Huh? - who said anything about junking the Constitution?  Please explain what parts of the Constitution you feel are in jeopardy and by what means those parts would be invalidated.

 If you are referring to the 1st amendment, please notice that the wording merely says that 'CONGRESS shall make no law' - this does not prohibit any state from enacting such laws (notwithstanding SC judicial fiat legislation).

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

As for your other comments re: Islam vs. Christianity, they are non sequitur.  Islam is a cult which promotes the destruction and/or subjugation of all non-members of the cult (non-believers).  The basic principals and beliefs of this cult are antithetical to a civilized, just and free society.  Therefore, it cannot be allowed to continue, nor can any cult or so-called 'religion' which advocates the destruction of others.  This is only common sense, not an endorsement of one religion over another. 

If you believe that the Constitution forbids the states from outlawing Islam, then you must also accept that it forbids them to outlaw or regulate in any way other cults - even those which practice human sacrifice, beastiality, slavery, and other perversions, all in the name of their 'religion'.   That would be suicidal for any society.   Self-preservation and defense is a fundamental right for both individuals and civilized, just and free societies.

[sheik yerbouty]

Most excellent!

[Mylo]

This is George Washington's opinion on religious liberty in America as written to the Jewish congregation of Newport. Read it and compare it to your idea of religious liberty where Islam is outlawed.



"The citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy-a policy worthy of imitation. All possess alike liberty of conscience and immunities of citizenship.

It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it on all occasions their effectual support."