Jefferson/Madison/Franklin Hated God ! ?

none | may 26 2005 | Vanity post

[Para-Ord.45]

Having a go round with an atheist who flung this at me.

Can anyone expound on the overall context and meaning ?

I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legaends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin, _Articles_Of_Belief_and_Acts_of_Religion_, Nov.20, 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." -- Benjamin Franklin , _Works_ Vol.VII, p.75

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught

"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

Thomas Jefferson

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition_, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."--Thomas Jefferson, _Notes_on_Virginia_, _Jefferson_the_President:_First_Term_1801-1805_, Dumas Malon, Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1970, p. 191

"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise.. affect their civil capacities."--Thomas Jefferson, _Statute_for_Religious_Freedom_, 1779, _The_Papers_of_Thomas_Jefferson_, edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:546

[zlala]

bump for later read

[muir_redwoods]

Few of the founders were Christians in the sense of the word today. Most would have accepted the morality of today's Christians sooner than they would have accepted the "morality" of someone like Clinton though.

[clyde asbury]

But for me, I'll go with what The Christ/Messiah has said about Himself.

As you should, if that is what speaks to you most. We can worry too much about dotted i's and crossed t's.

We. :)

[RedTail]

Sorry Clyde, but that's not the case. Deists don't believe in organized religion. They don't believe in holy doctrine such as the Bible. They don't believe there is an afterlife. They believe prayer is a waste of time, and that man's true purpose is to rationalize the universe. No, this all runs counter to Deistic beliefs.

[mewzilla]

Hey, LS....see 26....were your ears burning?

Oh, my.

Mr. Schweiker, you and your co-author wrote a fine book.

[jwalsh07]

Follow any church you want to, just don't make me abide by your rules.

First of all nobody argues for theocracy. Second of all, whose rules should we live by in my town, ours or yours?

Idiot

You'll be mumbling that about yourself when you leave this thread. And, you'll be right.

[rmmcdaniell]

What makes you think that Christians who are Conservative want to impose their values on society?

I can think of no legislation that promotes Christianity by government fiat'.

Read many threads at FR?

There are plenty on this forum that want to do just that, but there isn't enough of them to sway politicians.

[Mark Felton]

Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists.

utter nonsense promoted by modern day atheists.

BTW: The people most responsible for thr Bill of Rights being included in the US Constitution were the Baptists and men like Baptist preacher John Leland who forced James Madison to commit to the BoR and Patrick Henry and Jefferson were both sympathetic to the cause of the Baptists and their quest for religious liberty and freedom from State religion.

[whershey]

None of them hated God. Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin were firm believers in a power that formed the universe and also believed in some sort of life after death. Franklin didn't go to church but understood the need for it. For the most part, Adams and Jefferson did not like organized religion and did not believe that everything written in the New Testament was accurate although Jefferson in particular was a large fan of the morals taught by Jesus and considered himself to be a true Christian in comparison with the hypocrites he saw in the church. Madison actually went to divinity school before getting involved in politics and kept his beliefs private. He was the major force of separation of church and state but that was due to his experiences in Virginia with the problems caused by the Church of England before the revolution. He rightfully feared the same thing happening in the future in America if it wasn't specifically prevented.

Anybody saying any of these men hated God or were atheists has either read nothing about them or is trying to feed on other peoples ignorance.

[RedTail]

Furthermore the most important aspect of Deism is that God created the universe and that was it. He's taken no further action since then. Our founding fathers believed otherwise.

[rmmcdaniell]

First of all nobody argues for theocracy. Second of all, whose rules should we live by in my town, ours or yours?

The constitution.

[jwalsh07]

Clyde the basic principle of Deism is that Natures God started the ball rolling and then withdrew. Any prayers or entreaties for Divine Intervention and you've gone from Deist to Theist, snap, just like that.

[rcocean]

All of the founders fathers believed the USA was a Christian nation and had no problem with Religion being in the public square.

What they did not want, is a National established church, similar to the Church of England.

This was understood by all, until about 50 years ago, when the liberals amended the constitution by Judicial fiat. The Liberals decided the separation of church and state meant all kinds of things it hadn't meant for the previous 160 years. Like no prayer in school, no reading bible in school, etc.

[Libertina]

Best explanations of this are from Michael Medved. Look on his web site, perhaps he has a tape on this subject.

[jwalsh07]

The constitution.

Do you know the difference between laws and constitutional rights?

[rwfromkansas]

Many of them were Deists.

However, Franklin did urge prayer during govt. proceedings.

And Jefferson and Madison proposed and got passed a bill in Virginia to punish Sabbath breakers.

[Libertina]

Here is the link to Medved's site. You can look there for info. I heard him debunk this "the founders weren't Christian" bs on air. Wish I could remember all the points, but mash here:

Michael Medved

[mugs99]

Hated God?
Deists do not hate God...They just don't believe in revealed religions. Deists trust in God, not in men claiming to speak for God.
...

[Mark Felton]

"Jefferson was actually a gnostic Christian- he viewed Jesus as a philosopher. You might call his a Deist, though. No. This made Jefferson a Christian Unitarian, the type of Christian that existed before Catholicism was founded, and before the Council of Nicea defined the trnity as a foundation of Catholicism in AD 325 (or so). Jefferson was collaborating with other Unitarians as well and sought the day when all of the USA became Christian. Deists do not believe in a God that intervenes in everyday lives. Jefferson prayed hundreds of prayers asking for God to intervene in various matters. Jefferson was definitely NOT a diest. he proclaimed himself to be a Christian.

I am real Christian; that is to say a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."
                             -- Thomas Jefferson, Jan 9, 1816 letter to Charles Thomson. 

1. The doctrines of Jesus are simple and tend to the happiness of man.
2. There is only One God and He is all perfect.
3. There is a future state of rewards and punishment.
4. To love God with all the heart and thy neighbor as thyself is the sum of all.
   

" These are the great points on which to reform the religion of Jews."

-- Thomas Jefferson, Life of Jefferson, by Stephen Abbot Northropp pp252-253

"No one sees with greater pleasure than myself  the progress of reason and its advance towards rational Christianity, and my opinion is that if nothing had ever been added to what flowed from His lips, the whole world would at this day been Christian.... Had there never been a commentor there never would have been an infidel.  I have little doubt that the whole country will soon be rallied to the unity of our Creator, and, I hope, to the pure doctrines of Jesus also." 
                            -- Thomas Jefferson,  Library of American Literature, Vol III pp 283-284 Stephen Abbot Northrop

[Arioch7]

LOL!

Well, there are quite a few posters on here that I disagree with but I don't think of them as a mass movement.

I simply am not threatened by an Christian Conservative. The most they have ever done to me is try to persuade me to come back to the Catholic Church. It was more amusing than threatening.

Now if they passed a law saying I HAD to go to Church, hen I would say that they had crossed the line.

I guess I don't read many of the threads that have called for anything like this.

If I see any, I will certainly be agrguing strongly against such a thread.

Arioch7 out.