Posted on 05/11/2005 5:20:23 PM PDT by Cecily
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, interested in shoring up his standing in the influential US Evangelical Christian community, met eight leading Evangelical figures Tuesday, including Jay Sekulow, a high profile Messianic Jew.
Sekulow, who runs a conservative civil liberties group called the American Center for Law & Justice that was set up by evangelist Pat Robertson, is considered close to US President George W. Bush and was one of three strategists charged by the White House with the task of getting Bush's controversial court nominees through the Senate.
(Excerpt) Read more at jpost.com ...
Yes, it is.
Members are Jews from birth who choose to be Christians through faith in Jesus as Messiah.
Generally speaking, at least half of 'messianic' congregations are not Jewish by birth, but rather are gentiles who think believing in Jesus and attending a seder makes them Jewish.
Jews define who is a Jew. Someone who converts to another religion has cut himself off from the Jewish people.
That's not to say they can't return, but they would need to renounce their apostate beliefs first.
No, your statement isn't difficult -- like these similar statements:
"Illegal aliens have a right to seek a better life in America."
"'Gays' hve a right to marriage just like anyone else."
"Love is always its own justification."
Like yours, they're all simple.
And like yours, they're all indefensible.
So, tell me: is a "Reformed" Jew a Jew?
Dan
Because that's what Jews, based upon Jewish belief, have decided.
Don't like it? Tough. You don't have a vote.
If he is halakhically Jewish, yes.
Orthodox Jews do not formally recognize denominational differences. From the Orthodox perspective, there are only differences in the level of observance. An Orthodox Jew may find a Reform Jew to hold some heretical beliefs (if the Reform Jew denies certain major doctrines of Judaism). And he may find the Reform Jew to be deficient in matters of observance. But a Reform Jew is still a Jew.
That's your opinion.
And since you are a Christian, and not a Jew, your opinion on the subject is irrelevant.
Wow, these threads get hateful real fast.
So you have a personal issue with Jews who admit that Jesus is the Messiah; and like so many with personal issues, you feel it should be universal policy.
You'll have to understand, though, that not everyone feels himself to be ruled by your issues.
Meanwhile in the world of those who can look at the facts without any particular need to deny some to affirm others, your case is far from compelling.
You'll say that someone who does not believe that one word of the Tenach is the Word of God, who does not feel himself conscience-bound to believe or practice anything in it (i.e. a Reformed Jew), is a Jew.
But if someone by contrast does affirm every word, every teaching of the entire Tenach, as the very Word of God -- and if he further acknowledges that its Messianic prophecies find their fulfillment in Jesus -- you somehow think you have the right to deny his Jewishness.
As I say, you evidently have a personal issue with Jews who admit the truth about Jesus.
And, as I say, that's just a personal issue, and it would serve you and others well to keep it on that level. I pray you will deal with it in truth, in the spirit of Mishley 30:1-6.
Dan
Would you care to tell me what I posted that is 'hateful'?
Jews don't believe in Christianity. We don't dictate your theology or your membership rules to you. Please grant us the same courtesy.
I could not care less what the Christian Peter said.
For one, there is no record that any opposed the new converts as non-Jews, and for another, 3,000 Jews themselves were converted that day, none of them renouncing themselves as Jews.
Gosh, Christian scripture advances a Christian perspective on things. Imagine that.
I meant the threads where the words "Jew" and "Christian" are close together. They almost immediately devolve into vitriol.
No one is attempting to "dictate" your "theology" to you.
People are posting their opinions onto an internet bulletin board. It's really no big deal.
It is both a personal (since this is a pet peeve of mine) and a Jewish issue.
You'll have to understand, though, that not everyone feels himself to be ruled by your issues.
That's fine. However, to actual Jews, the opinion of Christians regarding the question of "who is a Jew" is irrelevant.
Meanwhile in the world of those who can look at the facts without any particular need to deny some to affirm others, your case is far from compelling.
Oh, right, you're the "objective" party here. [rolls eyes]
Again, your opinion is irrelevant. Jews do not believe in Christianity, and do not accept Christians as Jews. Get over it.
You'll say that someone who does not believe that one word of the Tenach is the Word of God, who does not feel himself conscience-bound to believe or practice anything in it (i.e. a Reformed Jew), is a Jew. But if someone by contrast does affirm every word, every teaching of the entire Tenach, as the very Word of God -- and if he further acknowledges that its Messianic prophecies find their fulfillment in Jesus -- you somehow think you have the right to deny his Jewishness.
Yes, that is exactly right. Well, with one caveat: it is not me personally who makes this decision. Rather, this is the position of actual Jews, and of actual Judaism. Don't like it? Tough.
As I say, you evidently have a personal issue with Jews who admit the truth about Jesus.
Judaism has an issue with Jews who accept false beliefs and who fall into apostacy.
If Sekulow believes that Jesus is a dying-and-resurrecting god-man savior, that makes him a good Christian. And an apostate Jew who has cut himself off from his people. It shouldn't be any surprise to you that certain central Christian doctrines are anathema to Judaism. They are two separate religions.
Then feel free to abstain from comment.
Why not let Jews who convert to Christianity call themselves Jews?
Why do you care what they call themselves?
Why do you want to "dictate" their "theology or your membership rules to" them?
We are all in this together, in a battle with Islamofascism. That's how I see it now.
Halakhah, Jewish law, determines who is a Jew. If someone is not halakhically Jewish, then they are not halakhically Jewish.
You represent a typical shortsighted mentality of "who is a Jew" and "I am a better Jew than you".
This is not a personal opinion. This is the position of Judaism. That some might find this "shortsighted" is irrelevant. After all, Jews don't get to define the membership requirements for the Catholic church or the Shriners.
However, all of my ancestors were Jewish, that means that I am a Jew. And I am no lesser Jew than the most religious Hassid.
Correct. As an atheist, you have lapsed from belief. But you haven't actively embraced another faith. There is a difference.
On the other hand, if someone today decided to convert to Judaism - and it is fairly easy to do, does it mean that he/sh is a Jew
If it was a halakhic conversion, yes.
And what happen to him/her when she "converts back"?
If it was a valid conversion, then from the perspective of Judaism, the person would be considered an apostate.
I think it is much easier to accept that Jews are born. And once a Jew - always a Jew.
That might be easier for you to accept, but it is wrong.
So, Jews for Jesus are Jews, so are Jews who are Catholic, Buddhist, you name it.
An errant premise leads to an errant conclusion. Again, it might be "easier to accept", but it is wrong.
Are they the ones with that bordello looking set? Not that I've ever been in a bordello, but when I saw them on tv late one night their set reminded me of Belle Watling's house in Gone with the Wind. :)
What part of the group are you talking about? Please be more specific.
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