The Science of Design

TheRealityCheck.Org ^ | 4/10/05 | Mark Hartwig

[blakep]

---That has been my point all along. And, if god creates evil, it's because he wants it to exist.---


Perhaps. Again I ask, could you imagine a world in which there was no negative emotion/expression?

[AntiGuv]

Good, do you allow them to do anything that could possibly bring them harm?

Yes. (I wish you'd get on with it)

[Elsie]

I've always wondered what mathematical odds were of...

This, of course, implies that the numbers are REALLY KNOWN, to be able to, in the first place, come UP with some kinds of 'odds'.

Many 'odds' are mere guesses - stabs in the dark - that 'something' might be possible to begin with.

[AndrewC]

No you misunderstand the verse.

I form the light.... What does that do? It creates darkness(absence of light)... I make peace ..... What does that do? It creates evil(absence of peace).

[blakep]

Look, I agree with evolution, but it doesn't get to the main questions: How did we come about? And why?

There's really nothing exciting about evolution if you ask me.

[AndrewC]

Yes

Then you allow what you don't want.

[unlearner]

God created all things for His own pleasure.

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

The purpose of all things can also be described as the glory of God.

2 Corintians 4:15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.

Philipians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

God's plan of redemption, demonstrated through the salvation of believers who are collectively called the "church", accomplishes the divine purpose of creation - glorifying God. By the church, God's infinite wisdom and power are demonstrated to unseen angelic beings who observe what God is doing through the church.

Ephesians 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

1 Corinthians 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

[AntiGuv]

blakep: "Perhaps. Again I ask, could you imagine a world in which there was no negative emotion/expression?"

Elsie: "Consider, then, just for a moment, that YOU had the power to create what you consider to be a 'perfect' god (or GOD, your choice.) What would His (his, her, HER, it's) attributes be?"

You are both attempting to impose limitations on god by examining my limitations. And AndrewC is trying to do the same (in a long, drawn out, annoying way that he's not done with yet).

If I were an infinite God, I would (a) be able to imagine a world without negativity; (b) be able to create a world that I regarded as perfect; and (c) be able to give my children freedom without distress.

But I am not God, and you cannot prove that God exists by proving that I am not God.

[Cvengr]

Sin has been judged, but not good and evil. Read Job, Genesis, Proverbs and Psalms, and Scriptural references to judgment, and consequence of rebllion in regards to references to angelic beings, powers, principalities, etc.

Some doctrines exist regarding the human race being an experiment test in something of an appeals trail of the fallen angels as well as an example for the elect angels to recognize the just nature of God's decisions and sentancing of the fallen angels and things good for nothing into the Lake of Fire.

[Elsie]

An omnipotent, omniscient god could very well create free will - although that would require that he limit himself, which would then make him a limited god.

 

Uh... just WHY is this a requirement?

limited...  if I choose NOT to stop my 2 year old grandchild from playing with matches, does this make ME limited?

 

---

 

Just because a great many people believe in something
is no guarantee of its truth.

 

~Gandhi

[AntiGuv]

You are reading between the lines some more to make it say what you want it to say. The verse is clear:

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Period.

[newheart]

"The firewall should exist in the classroom, because ID is NOT a scientific theory."

Sorry, that really begs the question. I can look at any object on my desk and, based on any number of evidences, deduce that there was some sort of intelligent design that brought it into existence in the very form that I observe. Am I not allowed, in a fully rational way, to seek to understand and define the principles upon which I reach my conclusions. Am I not allowed then to hypothetically apply those principles to other things and create experiments to validate or disprove those principles. And if my experiments lead me to draw some theoretical conclusions about the wider world, why is that not scientific? After all, that is pretty much what scientists do every day.

[Elsie]

The bible, which is just literature of religion and philosophy in my opinion, states that God recognizes that he created evil.

It DOES??

Where?

[AntiGuv]

Uh... just WHY is this a requirement?

It is only a requirement to keep it rational. There are other places that I haven't specified, and if you find any more that's exactly what I mean. Outside rational bounds, nothing is required, so anywhere that I refer to anything as "required" I mean that it is required if the statement is to be rational.

Otherwise, I have now covered all the points I care to cover here, and it's time for me to completely depart the thread. Chances are I've spoken to whatever else might come up along the lines argued thus far. If you want my opinion for some strange reason, it's all posted so I'm done!

[DannyTN]

"I said that arguments for the existence of gods are either irrational or irrelevant (for practical purposes - because one cannot draw definite conclusions). "

Maybe you can't draw definite conclusions from the kind of malarky that you've been throwing out. But your conscience has (or at least had at one time) a conclusion.

There is evidence.

• There are our consciences.
• There are time dateable prophecies.
• There are multiple eyewitness accounts to miracles.
• There is evidence of design.

[Elsie]

...comupter simulations ...

...are lies.

[MacDorcha]

And again, and again, and again....

That is it in English. Do you have ANY clue how that reads out in its original Greek?

Typically you wouldn't state simply one assertion then run with it. This is a modernized interpritation of it.

It would likely read more like this "I form the light, (and therefore) create darkness: I make peace (thus) there is evil."

[unlearner]

"Evil exists entirely at god's discretion although he doesn't want it to exist."

No, I disagree.

It is not necessary for you to believe or comprehend God's omniscience or omnipotence, particularly by the way you imagine these to operate. It is enough that you believe God is sufficiently knowledgeable, wise and powerful to accomplish His divine plans and purposes.

In spite of our disagreement, I commend you for taking the time to explore this. I realize, from your previous posts, that just discussing this requires a time investment.

Most people will not be intellectually honest enough even to explore these ideas. Most people do not believe in God because they do not like the idea of moral accountability, not because of logical reasons.

[AntiGuv]

And I've enjoyed the discussion even if it's been a wee bit testy at spots (that's my fault). I like to come back and ponder these things later when I have time to really consider them. See y'all around!

[blakep]

Anti-Guv, your argument was based solely on 'why is there evil, or suffering', therefore I responded with a question based on your primary assertions.

People ask why there is evil in the world. I believe that we were made consious of our actions(unlike animals) as to elevate ourselves and further humankind, in order to recognize the faults of mankind.

Otherwise we would be ordinary animals that still roam through the forest.