Athenian democracy an imperfect system that led to mob rule, says classics prof

Athenian democracy an imperfect system that led to mob rule, says classics prof

The word democracy comes from the Greek demokratia, a combination of demos, meaning people, and kratos, meaning power.

Democracy: power of the people. It’s the ideal form of government, isn’t it? Loren J. Samons says no — not the way it was practiced by Athens in the fifth and fourth centuries B.C. Athenian democracy was remarkably direct, rather than being representative, he says, and America’s founding fathers regarded this form of government as “unstable and dangerous.”

Most Americans generally believe that we live in a democracy, but the United States government was designed instead as a representative republic, in part “to shield elected leaders from the sometimes volatile public will,” writes Samons, a CAS associate classics professor and associate dean, in his recently published book What’s Wrong with Democracy? From Athenian Practice to American Worship ( University of California Press, 2004).

Samons says that over the course of the past 200 years, Americans have increasingly — and erroneously — applied the words democracy and democratic to our form of government, “in which a people express their sovereign power through elected representatives, under a Constitution that ensures individual rights.”

So, many citizens were in for a rude awakening during the protracted period following the 2000 presidential election, when candidate George W. Bush won the number of Electoral College votes necessary for victory, but had a minority of the popular vote. People were astonished to realize that we don’t live in a “true” democracy. There were calls for election reforms and the abolishment of the Electoral College.

But the Electoral College is still in place, and that’s the way the creators of the American regime intended it. They didn’t trust the masses. They certainly didn’t want to emulate the voting system in ancient Athens, where a citizen assembly made policy decisions. “There were 30,000 to 40,000 citizens eligible to vote,” Samons says, “but no more than about 6,000 would meet in an assembly. Measures were put before them, and they voted by literally holding up their hands.” As for public officials, a council of 500 was chosen by lot to serve administrative purposes and put measures before the assembly, but final decisions rested with the assemblymen themselves. “Policy questions such as, ‘Should we go to war with Sparta?’ were put before the people — that’s how decisions were made,” he says.

In 431 B.C. the Athenian general Pericles persuaded the assembly to provoke war with Sparta, leading to Athens’ defeat in the Peloponnesian War.

“The great irony to me is that in the last 15 to 20 years, some modern historians of ancient history have begun to look to Athens as a model for the theory and practice of modern politics,” says Samons. “A lot of their works paint an overly optimistic picture of Athenian democracy. To me, if we’re going to use Athens to study America, the first question we ought to ask is, ‘Did Athens succeed?’ One thing we know about Athenian democracy is that it didn’t last. During the nearly two centuries of Athenian democracy Athens suffered oligarchical revolutions twice.”

Samons points out the Athenians also waged rash imperialistic wars. “They lost virtually every war they fought against major Greek powers,” he says. “They were pretty good at bullying little Greek states, and they were successful against the Persians, but not against Sparta or Syracuse. Before we begin to look to Athens to better understand — or even alter — our own government, we should look at how well Athens succeeded.” Indeed, at the conclusion of the Peloponnesian War, in 404 B.C., the Athenian empire was not only humbled, but also overthrown. He notes that Athens foolishly refused to make peace early in the war, even when offered favorable terms by Sparta.

Samons says there is much to admire about Athens: its literature, art, architecture, and philosophers; but its experiments with democracy led to many mistakes and failures. After all, an Athenian jury of 500 citizens even voted to execute the great philosopher Socrates.

Despite the publicity the Electoral College received in 2000, Samons says, many Americans still believe that our country is a democracy and look to Athenian democracy as something we should strive for.

“I think we talk about our regime now as if it’s a democracy,” he says. “You hear politicians, for example, trying to align themselves with ‘what the American people want.’ This inspires a view that this is the best thing for the country — majority rule. After the 2000 election, I heard more than one politician talk about ‘the will of the majority’ instead of discussing why the Electoral College exists, and what the reasons are for a distance between the immediate will of the people and political action in the American system.”

Samons, who has written or edited three other books on ancient Athens, including one on Athenian democracy, says that he wrote What’s Wrong with Democracy “to get people to recognize and accept nondemocratic aspects of our regime.” He also wants readers to realize that we shouldn’t rely on our political system to improve society. “Many Americans tend to think that there is a political solution to every social problem,” he says. “This reflects a misplaced faith in the political process — a faith sometimes spawned by the modern idealization of democracy.”

America’s founders weren’t as foolhardy, according to Samons. “They clearly recognized the dangers of having a mass of citizens make policy decisions on the spot,” he says. “They were familiar with classical Athens, and the ancients proved that majority rule can devolve into mob rule.”

"...do we ever want a "mobocracy" where someone's rights are dictated by a majority or a republic as in our case where our rights are unalienable and cannot be violated by unscrupulous bureaucrats, etc...."

You're confusing your terms a little hear Spirit. A republic is just as capable of violating the rights of its citizens as a democracy is. What protects minority rights in America is the constiution not the government In our case, specifically it is the Bill of Rights component of the constitution that protects our rights.

A previous poster writes that the U.S. is a Constitutional Republic. Just so. The U.S. is a republic (a representative government that rules by the will of the people) that jealously guards against tyranny, by either minority or majority, by virtue of the separated powers granted to the varioius levels and bodies of government.

Having said that, the "republic" could snuff those protections out quite easily by passing amendments to the constitution and stacking the supreme court with like minded judges. Certainly some on the Left and Right accuse the current administration of doing this in the form of the USA Patriot Act In short, we aren't protected by the fact that we are a republic, but by the will of the people to live by and defend the Constitution.

"....Cities like Corinth and Thebes were not small. Its navy defeated the Persians at Salamism, which this hate-America professor sweeps under the rug...."

Corinth and Thebes were great powers in their own rights, it is true. But Athens did extract tribute from the smaller members of the Delian League, including the Ionian Greeks living in Turkey and the Islands around Samos and the neighboring Boeotians. They all resented it, and Sparta was able to exploit this to ill effect for Athens. You can argue that Athens was extracting tribute to pay for the Triremes and Hoplite armor necessary to protect the League from Persian perfidy and Spartan domination. But the tribute, when mixed with haughty Athenian arrogance, was a nettle in the sandals of many Athenian allies who later turned traitors to the great democracy.

There are more lessons for the U.S. to heed in this story. Don't press your allies too hard. Don't overstretch your forces. Don't overspend on the military to maintain your empire. When a nation needs to borrow treasure to pay the rowers needed to preserve the empire it is all but doomed.

I agree a lot with what you say and that by all rights we should be a republic but as we see the structure of gov't at all levels with corporate status, codes, regulations, etc. none of which are provided for in the Constitution, it's obvious we've far off track.

Now it looks more and more like the Administrative Procedures Act and the UCC are now the law of the land (instead of the Constitution) complete with unelected bureacrats at several levels that seemingly have more power over our lives than we've ever dreamed possible. I've maintained for some time that it's all about either exerting increased control over the populace as well as extracting as many $ possible through taxes, fees, permits, etc.

"....I've maintained for some time that it's all about either exerting increased control over the populace as well as extracting as many $ possible through taxes, fees, permits, etc ..."

You're right Spirit. We live in a complex age that requires a substantial government staffed by skilled persons. By its nature that necessitates a permanent bureaucracy.

But, the bureaucracy needs to be as accountable to the people as efficiency allows. Only proximity to the people can facilitate an adequate level of accountability.

A Leviathon in Washington can't be truly accountable. The antidote to bureaucratic tyranny is federalism, the appropriate sharing of power between the federal government, the states and the people.

The GOP was edging in this direction in the Nineties, at least rhetorically (term limits, deregulation, balanced budget, free trade, quasi-isolationist foreign policy). Sad to say that the Bush 42 administration has moved in the other direction for good or ill under the guise of the war on terror.

Yes, it does make one wonder who's really in charge when we hear stories about Congress passing legislation they've either skimmed through or didn't read at all as in the case of the Patriot Act.....which in fact was totally repudiated by numerous cities nationwide as unconstitutional. If you've studied the FTAA I believe a lot of what's going on is the groundwork for that sovereignty robbing legislation as well as Agenda 21.

To even compare the two, is foolish.

Not foolish, because even the one with the better chance to succeed, failed. Consider:

1. The Leftist effort to convert America into a one person/ one vote Democracy, is premised upon unqualified voting by virtually all residents--a moronic concept, since no one would run their personal business that way (allowing the hiring of decision makers without inquiry as to their competence or other qualifications).

2. Athenian Democracy, on the other hand, was limited to the actual citizens--the ethnic Athenians, with resident aliens carefully excluded (as of course was the large slave population, the actual majority of the residents). And the Athenians had perhaps the highest level of average intelligence of any definable human population in the historic period.

3. Since 1965, thanks to our beloved "Liberals," and other apologetic Americans, America has allowed a large immigration from regions of the earth with virtually no ethnic or cultural ties to the European heritage, which formed the foundation that the American settlers built upon. This creates a very incongruous electorate, with significant blocks without the common sense of identity with continuing values, lines of descent, or the other ingredients that go into defining clear National purpose.

The "Democracy" mantra is not, then, appreciably safer for the American future, than it is suitable to much of the Third World, and that is not very safe at all. (See Democracy In The Third World.) As suggested in another thread today, on what is happening in "Zimbabwe:" Rhodesia + Democracy = "Zimbabwe"

Rhodesia was a garden among modern Nations. Zimbabwe is an absolute disaster.

William Flax

Having said this, there are many leassons for the U.S. to learn from the demise of the Athenia empire. Certainly the ill-fated war over Sicily (here referenced as the battle against Syracuse) was key to the eventual end of the empire. The U.S. must be certain not to make the same mistake in its effort to bring democracy, however we define it, to the world.

Just the effort to bring "it"--however defined--to the world, sets in motion an avalanche of resentment, and is totally antagonistic to our long term interests. One need look no further than how unhelpful, the pronouncements by Secretary of State Rice and President Bush, with respect to Mr. Putin's backing away from "Democracy," are likely to be to American business interests, trying to conclude favorable deals with Russia! You will note, in the little debate, we staged at the website--our Feature for March George Washington -- George W. Bush Debate--how much clearer is General/President Washington, in understanding the purpose of American foreign policy--including its function to advance the interests of American merchants, as well as maintain our freedom from entanglements that limit our future action.

We used to influence others by an honorable example. An arrogant telling others that we know what is wrong with their cultural heritages is no equivalent. You do not accomplish anything worthwhile based upon insulting what you may not really understand.

William Flax

At Salamis, Athens gave command of the Athenian fleet to Sparta. Sparta abandoned one of its kings to die at Thermopolae, with the 300 Spartans, yet in its magnamity, Athens won the war, and in its selfishness, Sparta lost.

200 years later (and compare to our history, how long that is) Athens was indeed an empire, it did indeed make war on little states, to maintain its pride of place that it had gained by yielding pride of place to its rival.

Alcibides was indeed important to the start of the expidition to Sicily, but was recalled, and he returned to defend himself. Other great leaders would not step forward to adopt the child of his imagination.

The men who fought on, fought well, but deprived of an outstanding leader who was invested in the cause, they lost. Having done what men could, they endured what men must.

That's exactly why our Founding Fathers chose a republic not an Athenian style democracy as our form or government. Remember Ross Perot's call for national town meetings to decide major US policies?...that would have been mob rule.

I don't see how criticism of Athens makes someone anti-American. I think Professor Samons was referring to Athens' treatment of its allies in the Athenian Empire, which it was inclined to bully (see Aristophanes' Birds or the pages of Thucydides).

The great war of 431-404 is usually called "the Peloponnesian War" on account of Thucydides' history of the war, not the "second" war despite that fact that some earlier fighting is sometimes called "the First Peloponnesian War."

I met Professor Samons once but don't know what his views are in terms of modern American politics.

"....We used to influence others by an honorable example. An arrogant telling others that we know what is wrong with their cultural heritages is no equivalent. You do not accomplish anything worthwhile based upon insulting what you may not really understand...."

I'm not with you entirely on President Washington's view of foreign policy, fellow Buckeye, but I couldn't agree more with the above referenced passage. Like the arrogant Athenians before us, we demoractic imperialists often put ourselves in disrepute by our heavy-handedness and lack of thritf. We need to get our fiscal house in order, trim back our foreign defense obligations (why is there a NATO anyway?), raise our savings rate and develop a serious energy policy. We stand a better chance of spreading the life giving wind of freedom when we are an example to be emulated not derogated.

"...200 years later (and compare to our history, how long that is) Athens was indeed an empire, it did indeed make war on little states, to maintain its pride of place that it had gained by yielding pride of place to its rival.

Alcibides was indeed important to the start of the expidition to Sicily, but was recalled, and he returned to defend himself. Other great leaders would not step forward to adopt the child of his imagination....."

Well put, but Alcibiades was no leader, at least not in a positive sense. He was a demogogue. And, while Athens never found another Pericles to its distress, it should be admired for fearing and eschewing powerful leaders when feasible.

Great leaders often become worse tyrants.

Atheninn democracy wasn't perfect, but it yielded a cohesive "demos" and therefrom a courageous, well ordered, deadly infantry and navy. With this, leaders were largely interchangeable. So much the better.

[ Democracy = power of the people. ]

And the people always say "show me the money"...
ALL democracy is mob rule.. Democracy is the disease that CAUSES socialism.. and it always morphs into "show me that government check".. If you're over 55, chances are you are looking for the government to show YOU the money.. sooner rather than later.. Most/many anti-socialists are anti-socialist for OTHER PEOPLE..

"200 years later (and compare to our history, how long that is) Athens was indeed an empire,..."

Just for accuracy's sake, the victory at Salamis (480) over the Xerxes of Persia effectively stands as the birth of the Athenian empire. The Athenian's domination of the seas led to its leadership role in the Delian League, which leadership role evolved into that of a hegemon, complete with forced tribute and occassional military forays into the territories of allies to keep them in line. The Peloponnesian War began approximately 45 years later (434), as ticked off Athenian allies and neutrals (Corinth, Megara) joined forces with the Spartans to free Greece from Athenian domination. The Athenian Empire was effectively destroyed by 403. Weakened by plague and the losses at Sicily at the hands of the Syracusans, Athens succombed to the Spartan infantry.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.