Posted on 02/28/2005 11:59:26 AM PST by Destro
Big news. Aristotle and Plato said as much 2400 years ago.
This idea is not particularly new. Plato studied philosophy to discover what was going wrong with Athenian democracy.
"You must remember, Octavius, I only control the Senate. The Mob controls your life."
I'm not so sure it worked all that well. Look at Alcibiades and his instigation of the disastrous Sicilian Expedition. He fired up the mob and got the vote to authorize an ambitious expedition to Syracuse, which was subsequently annihilated. Athens never recovered from this defeat.
Someone said that if the Athenian polity had consisted only Socrates's, it still would have been a mob.
"...Aristotle said the same thing over 2300 years ago. The least they could have done is mentioned him in this piece...."
I also would venture to say that the depiction of the great Pericles in this piece borders on slander. Pericles actaully tried to steer a middle course between the Athenian doves (who were anti-democrat aristorcrats who sympathized with Sparta) and the radical war party, led by the duplicitous scoundrel and demogogue (he practically invented the term) Alcibiades. Pericles wanted to use judicious force and military/naval strength to convince the Spartans to modify their war-like behavior vis-a-vis Corinth and other city states that bristled under Athenian suzereignity. He thought this would avoid war without endangering Athenian democracy and the remnants of the democratic-oriented Delian League. He was no warmonger by any means.
Having said this, there are many leassons for the U.S. to learn from the demise of the Athenia empire. Certainly the ill-fated war over Sicily (here referenced as the battle against Syracuse) was key to the eventual end of the empire. The U.S. must be certain not to make the same mistake in its effort to bring democracy, however we define it, to the world.
I supose in the modern (bastardized) definition we would be called a "representive democracy", but in the classical definition as used by the founders, no, we are not a democracy and there actually are no democracies anywhere in the world.
Of course, under classical definitions, I'm a Liberal, not a Conservative.
Chap named Aristotle said it 2000 years earlier.
Hard to talk about democracy in Athens where their economy was tied to slavery.
Not-so-fast! The FF expected the pols to follow the Constitution, provide for our security, etc. When 85% plus want the borders secured what type of representation is this?
......a republic is a sheep and three wolves voting on what's for dinner.....only the sheep HAS A GUN!
"The government which governs least, governs best." - Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson quotes (US 3rd US President (1801-09). Author of the Declaration of Independence. 1762-1826)
Let's use the LIBs logic.
Since they believe that Jefferson believed in the absolute seperation of Church and State lets remind them that he is also against Democracy.
It's all about rights.....do we ever want a "mobocracy" where someone's rights are dictated by a majority or a republic as in our case where our rights are unalienable and cannot be violated by unscrupulous bureaucrats, etc. In a democracy rights are turned into privileges (for a fee).....that's why so many of our gov't entities are now corporations (operating in commerce)......a democracy is a corporate form of governance.
Thats not accurate at all. This is modern day America hatred and hatred of Bush and Republicans trying to cloak itself in classic history. Athens, did in fact, win most of its wars. The word "imperialistic" is used to attack America.
The part about the Syracuse Expedition and the 2nd Pelopenesian War (this professors leaves out that there was a 1st Pelopenesian War) is true. But liberals have been comparing that to Vietnam for decades now.
Oh yeah, and Athens did not pick on little states like this professor claims. Cities like Corinth and Thebes were not small. Its navy defeated the Persians at Salamism, which this hate-America professor sweeps under the rug.
bump
Not only a bad idea, but literally impossible.
How do you scale a 30,000 to40,000 population to one 10,000 that size?
Pure democracy works ideally as a tribal form of government. Which we ain't.
There are, but they don't last. They come and go. Once they have achieved their aim, they are replaced by political organization.
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