Is circumcision the kiss of death or source of life?

Toward Tradition ^ | 2/21/2005 | Samuel Silver

[Babwa]

The national news media is abuzz with a story about the possible link between the tragic death of an infant Jewish boy from herpes and his circumcision. At the same time, the media has not fully reported on the fact that circumcision could save millions of lives from the scourge of AIDS.

The problem is that circumcision is in the Bible, which makes it a serious violation of the religion practiced by the majority in academia and the mainstream media - secular fundamentalism. They have stood by while millions died and continue to die. How differently they value human life than Judaism and the Judeo-Christian tradition.

[N. Theknow]

Keep the tip.

And so the Rabbi kept ALL the tips.

And when he retired he took them to a cobbler and said make me something from these.

Two weeks later he goes back to the cobbler and he sees that he has made a wallet from them.

"So what is this? All those tips and this is what you make for me? A Wallet?

"Ah! Rabbi. Stroke it and it becomes a steamer trunk>"

[followerofchrist]

"Here's another little fact finding mission for everyone who reads. The following is one of the old "mythopoetic" sites--you know, those dudes who got naked together in sweat lodges and beat drums in the woods during the '90s?

Enter the word, "circumcision" in the "search this site" at the bottom. Much of the anti-circumcision movement originated with west coast male feminists."

There are type types of men's rights groups. Conservative men who advocate intactness, and father's rights, and others who beat drums and sit in sweat lodges, who also advocate intactness. It isn't honest to mix the two.

[Modernman]

Years ago, in another forum, we went all through this. I kept asking these "circed" guys how they knew sex must be better with foreskin; dittos on asking the guys with foreskin what basis for comparison they had.

Personal experience only, but I've had several women tell me that sex was better with an uncircumsized guy.

[followerofchrist]

Two of my uncles (they are brothers) had to have the procedure done when they were in their 50s. (No, I don't know why, and I don't wanna know. I only heard that it was for "medical reasons.")

They probably did it because they were once in a foreign land fighting a war, without access to running water to clean themselves. My ex boyfriend said his father had his boys circumcised because he didn't ever want his kids to end up on a battlefield without the means to clean their foreskins. It was a common complaint in that generation, which explains why your uncles had it done. Women in the battlefield will get yeast infections for the same reason. If a man is going off to war, maybe he should have it done before he leaves.
That is a good medical reason.

[followerofchrist]

"If you're Jewish, you might be Cohen the Barbarian"

Thank you for making me laugh! The word for a black Jew is "julatto" according to a half-Jewish book I read!

[Babwa]

You are absolutely wrong to say, "The only benefit of circumcision is that it is easier to clean that area." The science has progressed very far since the anti-circ movement began in thew 1970's. Read Samuel Silver's article at www.towardtradition.org or look at www.medicirc.org.

The benefits of neo-natal circumcision documented in 1999 by the American Academy of Pediatrics were protection against:
1. UTI (Urinary Tract Infection)
2. Penile cancer
3. STD’s (Sexually Transmitted Diseases) and HIV/AIDS infection
4. Balanoposthisis (infections of the glans)
5. Phimosis (failure of the foreskin to retract)
6. Ease of genital hygiene.

There was only one offset reported, the possibility of very rare and minor surgical complications. The AAP, like most scientific organizations today, is not immune to politics. The Policy Statement added the strange statement, “however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision,” and then concluded that “parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child.” Advocates on both sides of the argument have criticized this Policy Statement, but even with the strong political pressure from the anti-circumcision crowd, the AAP still concluded that circumcision has medical benefit for newborns with little or no downside risk.

[Modernman]

The Policy Statement added the strange statement, “however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision,”

What's strange about that statement? There are medical benefits to removing the appendix, too. However, those benefits do not outweigh the downsides of exposing a child to a surgical procedure.

Put another way, we will soon be at the point where medical science will allow for the creation of "improved" babies through the use of genetic engineering. If you support circumcision for its positive effects, you should also support genetic engineering.

[followerofchrist]

"There's an agenda under the "anti-circ" movement that is so surreptiously sly and anti-American, anti-semitic. Just so you know."

Does the foreskin represent anti-American sentiments and mark a man as an America-hater?

Are those who favor circumcision really bio-medical researchers in disguise? Are they Nazis plotting to make lampshades of foreskins?

"Tofu-farters is what I refer to them as..."

Now this discussion has gone from science to ad-hominum attacks. People who advocate leaving babies intact are tiofu-eating, drum beating socialist America-hating Nazis. Probably terrorists and child molesters too! Oi! I haven't heard the same allegations coming from our side. Usually when one is on the losing end of an argument, or can't accept an opposing pov, they resort to character assassination and guilt by association.

Are you selling foreskins on the net?

[longtermmemmory]

That is not what they concluded. The conclusion was that the minimal benefits did not justify the risks associated with the procedure.

The conclusion was posted above for the benefit of all to read.

[Babwa]

You might not believe it because you are don't really know all of the facts. Read the studies quoted in the article at www.towardtradition.org.

Of course promiscuity is the main problem, but promiscuous men who are not circumcised are at least 2-3 times more likely to get AIDS than promiscuous men who are circumcised. Are you therefore decreeing the death penalty for promiscuous men?

[VermiciousKnid]

You know....I never thought of that. Yes, both my uncles were in battlefield conditions -- Unk #1 in WWII (Pacific Theatre) and Unk #2 in Korea (he stayed in the Navy as a Corpsman attached to the Marines for the next 28 years).

If I ever get up the nerve, I'll ask them if they think that could explain it.

Regards,

PS: My father was with the USMC in Korea. He was circumcised in infancy and has had no problems.

[Modernman]

If a man is going off to war, maybe he should have it done before he leaves. That is a good medical reason.

Does the military require that all servicemen be circumsized?

[Babwa]

Yes babies feel pain, and unlike the Jewish circumcision technique, the hospital technique has been vary painful. There are new techniques that eliminate most of the pain in the hospital, so pain should soon be a non-issue.

[HamiltonJay]

I am not going to bash circumcision, but the manner in which this (and the other children who were infected by this particular rabbi) is highly outmoded given current medical understanding.

[luckystarmom]

I let my husband decide whether to circumcise our son. He decided that he didn't want our son circumcised.

I figure if my son wants to later in life, he can.

So far, he's 10 and no problems.

[Babwa]

"Face it, the motivations of 99.9% of "the anti-circumcision crowd" is to avoid unnecessary, sexually debilitating surgery on our little boys."

If this is true, then why object to Jewish circumcisions that are neither painful nor tortuous, and why object to universal circumcision for African and Asians in order to save millions of lives. Do you value a small piece of skin more than a human life?

[HamiltonJay]

It wasn't a matter of the skill of the mohel.. it was the fact that this guy had HERPES, and when he used his mouth filled with whatever alcohol is traditional to cleanse the wound he infected these kids.

This manner of circumcision is outmoded given current medical knowlege. Several thousands of years ago, was probably the best way to go about it... now it clearly isn't.

[VermiciousKnid]

I am a nice, good Catholic girl. I watched my (Jewish) OB/GYN perform the procedure on my #2 son (I would have watched #1 too, but I was whacked out from my own surgery).

Dr. K. did not strap him down, and he DID apply an anesthetic cream to the area a few minutes beforehand. It's the same stuff they put on kids when they need stitches or a particularly painful shot.

Anyway, #2 son didn't cry. He simply looked startled, like when you blow air at a baby's face. The whole thing took mere seconds, and then they wrapped him up and handed him back over to me. Trust me when I tell you that I've had worse DENTAL EXAMS.

Regards,

PS: One of these days I'm going to learn my lesson and NOT post on a circumcision thread. They suck you and and won't let go! LOL

[Babwa]

There have been NO reports that the mohel had herpes, only a question. He has taken blood tests, but to results have been reported.

The herpes they are talking about is Type 1 (cold sores), not genital herpes. Most adults carry this virus in their bodies, but it is usually dormant. It is only contagious just before and during an active episode with a cold sore or fever blister.

That is why is all likelihood, the herpes did not come from him, but we still need more information.

[luckystarmom]

My parents almost died when they found out that we were not circumcising our son. They had other parents calling us up to convince us to circumcise our son.

My son is still intact.