Iraq marshes(Biblical Eden) can be partially restored

The fabled marshes of Mesopotamia, largely destroyed by Saddam Hussein in one of the worst pieces of ecological vandalism in recent history, can be partially restored, scientists said on Sunday.

The first scientific assessment of the marshes in southern Iraq, al considered by some to have been the Biblical location of the Garden of Eden, was presented to the American Association for the Advancement of Science meeting in Washington.

Saddam's drainage programme - accompanied by the persecution and forced relocation of the Marsh Arabs who had lived there for 5,000 years - reduced the wetlands to 7 per cent of their original 20,000 sq km area. But some of the former marshland is already recovering, following the actions of local people who broke down Saddam's dikes and dams after his regime fell in 2003.

The study by US, Canadian and Iraqi scientists showed a surprising rapid return of plants and wildlife to the areas that have been reflooded by the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. "The quality of the river water turns out to be much higher than many people had expected," said Curtis Richardson of Duke University in North Carolina, the study leader.

"Immediately after [the overthrow of Saddam] we saw just a dozen birds in the marshes," Prof Richardson said. "A year later, there were hundreds and now they are talking about many thousands."

The marshes were once an important resting point for waterfowl migrating between Siberia and Africa. The local otter species, which survived in the small area of the marshes along the Iranian border that were not drained, is also making a come-back.

Barry Warner, a botanist at the University of Waterloo in Canada, said: "There are encouraging signs that a vibrant and healthy plant community will re-establish itself in the newly wetted areas."

Because the marshes were drained only recently - mainly during the 1990s as Saddam took revenge on the Shia Marsh Arabs for their failed insurrection after the first Gulf War - many desiccated areas retain a large and viable seedbed.

But the scientists said a sustained international effort would be needed to support Iraqis' efforts to turn the current ad-hoc flooding into a sustainable long-term revival. Peter Reiss, director of the US Agency for International Development's marshland restoration project, said: "Within Iraq the destruction of the marshes has become a symbol of the oppression by Saddam's regime."

Most Iraqis support restoration, but there is no consensus about how much of the marshes to restore permanently given the competing demands for scarce water. Prof Richardson said 30 per cent would be a reasonable target.

Plans by Turkey and Iran to take more water from the Tigris and Euphrates rivers also pose a long-term threat to marshland restoration.

Even the Marsh Arabs have somewhat ambivalent attitudes about restoration of the wetlands. Their population, estimated at 350,000 in 1950, is now little more than 100,000, none of whom are living in their original homes, Mr Reiss said. Their traditional way of life, documented by Wilfred Thesiger, Gavin Maxwell and other authors, was based on fishing, water buffalo herding and reed cutting. This is virtually extinct today and most of the remaining Marsh Arabs are impoverished sedentary farmers. But according to Mr Reiss, many of them feel it will be impossible to recreate their way of life and would prefer outside investment in conventional agriculture.

I'd most likely be a Christian today were it not for Christians in my youth.

How very weak of you to allow others to keep you away from the truth.

You talk big and are full of bluster, but you've just revealed yourself to be quite a wimp.

I could go to great lengths to provide (empirical) evidence that the New Testament is a valid, historic document, but there is no sense in continuing a conversation with someone who has been indeed brainwashed, and is so much in fear of studying the evidence in front of him.

My final words to you, orion. Find out about the God created You, the world you live in and even the constellation you name yourself after...... don't be afraid of what you'll find out.

This man may be indeed a stump, but the fact that he has continued to engage in conversation reveals that at some level, he is really interested in knowing the truth. He is just afraid of what he's going to find out if he looks....

As to the "redneck" aspect of this. The area of evolution, (with the ardent science worshippers who argue it's validity here), is where I have found a bizarre brand of liberalism in those who claim to belong on this conservative forum. (Making it clear that I don't think all those who believe in 'theistic evolution' fit the category of 'worshippers' like this guy does. With them, I just have a difference of opinion)

They routinely ridicule people of faith. They routinely ridicule God's word, yet I think consider themselves to be conservatives.

It just doesn't fit, does it?

> He is just afraid of what he's going to find out if he looks....

Entirely 180 degrees backwards, actually. There is little more I'd love to be true than the Christian notions of the afterlife, and what is necessarily associated with that. However, wishing something were so and knowing it to be so are not necessarily the same things.

> They routinely ridicule people of faith. They routinely ridicule God's word, yet I think consider themselves to be conservatives.

By "people of faith" are you referring to Muslims?By "God's word" do you mean the Koran?

ROFLOL!! Only after you forced me to it, orion.

You didn't have to tell me you were afraid of Christianity because some people scared you away when you were a kid.........but you did.

You're just afraid to admit your own responsibility in this. You blame others for your own weakness. You're not the 'victim' here.

It just won't fly for anyone who's thinking rationally (i.e. not you)...... it won't fly.

Ignore me. Read God's love letter to YOU. Your cynical veneer of bravado and bluster doesn't hide the fact that you need God as much as we do.

> You didn't have to tell me you were afraid of Christianity because ...

It's not true. What is it with you that makes you think that those who leave the faith are "afraid" of anything? I think I know why: you look upon the notion of apostasy with fear, so you think all others do as well. Your myopia does not control the world, however.

> You're just afraid to admit your own responsibility in this.

Incorrect. When I grew up, I put away childish things. Since Christianity had become for me a very childish thing, I put it away. People like you convinced me that it is a childish thing.

> Ignore me.

Why? And miss out on what the true core of SuperChristianity is?

One of the amazing things about God is that He has created us with minds, and He gives us the ability to choose. One can accept God's love, or reject it.

You have chosen to reject God. Blaming others for it (as you do), and not your own decision is what makes you weak.

When I was a kid, I had one substitute Sunday School teacher who said that the Bible taught that Negroes were meant to be slaves to white people. What would it say about me if I rejected all the truths in God's word, and ran away from Christianity because of this ignorant, and very UN-Christ-like Christian in my past? Not much.

But, that's exactly what you have done. And you are still blaming others for your own choice. You are playing the victim, when you have made the choice yourself to ignore God's call.

I'm not any form of 'Super Christian' but I do want others to experience the love of Christ, and I share it with them.

I am powerless and weak, but God is omnipotent. It is He whom I would like you to find......and the peace that passes all human understanding.

I will leave you with the words of Jesus.....

I am the Resurrection and the Life. He that believes in Me will live, even though he dies; , yet shall he live. And whoever lives and believes in Me, will never die. Do you believe this? .....John 11: 25

> You have chosen to reject God.

If it helps you sleep better to believe that, go for it. In all honesty, your simplistic views are entertaining.

> You are playing the victim

Only if you believe that those who think for themselves are "victims." I happen not to agree.

> I'm not any form of 'Super Christian' but I do want others to experience the love of Christ, and I share it with them.

And you insult and berate and rebuke those who do not believe as you do. Your choice.

> What would it say about me if I rejected all the truths in God's word, and ran away from Christianity because of this ignorant, and very UN-Christ-like Christian in my past?

Well, if you were *surrounded* by such nonsense for years, coming from a multitude of sources... it would say you've grown up.

Hearing Creationist claptrap from a few random nutjobs would not be enough to de-Christianize too many people. But noting the relatively vast size of the movement leads a rational person to understand that a good chunk of the religion is based on hogwash. If a religion claims to be Inerrant, and yet is massively and obviously flawed on some pretty basic facts, then seeing it as a lie becomes not just easy, but inevitable.

For the record: I have not "rejected God." I have rejected *you*, however. And since you see yourself as God's representative, you see rejection of you and your beliefs as rejection of God.

You would not be the first person to hold yourself up as God's equal in these matters, and you won't be the last.

I have pointed you repeatedly away from me, a sinner, to Jesus, the sinless; from me, the creation, to God, the Creator.

I don't want you to pay a single bit of attention to what I've said, other than to go to God's Word and read what it says.

Peace, orion.

Do-loop.

So, orion..............I read this yesterday, and was going to ignore it (because it was so stupid and it made me laugh out loud), but I thought I'd come back today and give you a little parental advice ..............

Maybe you should consider the next time that you're ranting against Christians, not using the "I'm too mature to be a Christian" angle, followed by childish silliness like this. My advice......choose one or the other. (Even your clever 'whatever' retort is a step up from 'Do-loop.')

Just a suggestion, not spiritually related, but kinda common sense, and hopefully helpful to your Christians-are-bad-people-and-I'm-smarter-than-they-are line of attack...... :o)

I enjoy how you evade the subject every time you reply to turn it into a personal attack.

Very clever.......and you're good at it.

Now why don't you try to actually address anything I've said? Can you do it?

I mean without the 'you're a bad person' angle?

You've said you're not a Christian because there are bad people (like me) who are Christians.

Defend that with logic and reasoning.

You've said that you're not a Christian because Christians (like me) are childish, and Christianity is childish, and then you say "Do Loop" As a defense.

As a reasoning adult, defend your use of that word (without attacking me).

Please. Do it. Try.

One more point I'd like you to clarify.

You have stated clearly that you have rejected Christianity because of the negative influence of Christians (like me) in your life.

So this is what I want you to verify, or explain for me (and anyone lurking)........

You, orionblamblam, have rejected Jesus Christ, God incarnate, holy and sinless, who suffered, bled and died on a cross because of His love for you, orionblamblam.......who was buried in a tomb for three days, and arose from the dead.......who lives today at the right hand of His Father, waiting for you, orionblamblam, to accept His unending love for you.

You have rejected all of this because of me, and others like me? Is that what you are saying?

If not, please......without insults and evasion........explain what you really meant.

> You've said you're not a Christian because there are bad people (like me) who are Christians.

No, I didn't. I said that the existence of a large number of Christians who made it plain that to be a Christian meant one has to beleive the patently absurd led me to wander away from the faith. Getting kicked out of Sunday school didn;t help, either...

> You've said that you're not a Christian because Christians (like me) are childish, and Christianity is childish, and then you say "Do Loop" As a defense.

Again incorrect. "Do-loop" was in response to your statement "I don't want you to pay a single bit of attention to what I've said." How can I take that advice when you just told me not to take your advice?

No, I didn't. I said that the existence of a large number of Christians who made it plain that to be a Christian meant one has to beleive the patently absurd led me to wander away from the faith. Getting kicked out of Sunday school didn;t help, either...

So you reject the Christ of the cross who loved you because of absurd people in your past, people like me, and getting kicked out of Sunday School?

Is that right?

> you have rejected Christianity because of the negative influence of Christians

That was one major reason, yes.

> You, orionblamblam, have rejected Jesus Christ

No. There's a difference between not accepting as fact and wholly rejecting.

> explain what you really meant

It's really quite simple.
1: Claim is made that the Bible is Without Error
2: However, taken literally (as opposed to allegorically) the Bible is CHock Full O' Error
Conclusion: somebody is lying to me. Either it's a lie when they say the Bible is error free (in which cas ethe Bible is nothign particularly special), or they are lying to me when they say that Creation and Noah myths are not allegory but instead literal fact.

In either case, when a reasonably intelligent child realizes thathis religious elders are lyign to him about their religion, that child begins to question the *entire* religion. Since science fully and satisfactorally answers the questions raised by those lies, and since science has immediate practical application in all aspects of life and yet says nothign about the existence or even necessity of a god or gods... agnosticism is a reasonable result.

And when as an adult many Christians continue their practice of lying (such lies as "those who use science and do not believe in God are thus 'worshipping' themselves or science or Mankind" or some such similar BS), that adult can only shake his head at the childishness of it all.

If you truly believe that the Christians in your youth were 'lying' to you, then an intelligent person with a quest for knowledge (that you clearly have), might have chosen to investigate what he had been taught more thoroughly, rather than reject it.

You are basing your view that the Bible is "chock full of errors" on insufficient information, which you could correct with more personal research.

As I have suggested in past posts, you might consider doing your own investigation, and not basing your views on the incorrect, or impartial things people have told you in the past.

On another thread, an older man (also an ardent evolutionist) said he had rejected Christianity because a Sunday School teacher had told him that women had one more rib than men, and thus was also 'lying' to him. If you look at what he was saying (or you) from an objective perspective, both arguments against Christianity fall short of logic.........especially for a scientific mind. The human error of the teacher does not negate the truth of God's word.

Christians aren't perfect. They make mistakes. Sometimes, they even go over the top with sarcasm. ;o)

You need to go to the Christ of Christian Scriptures (without error) and study what He has really said and done, and you will find out that His (historically provable) life is a fact, and His love for you is also a fact.

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