Shroud of Turin: Old as Jesus?

THE NEW YORK TIMES ^ | January 27, 2005 | NA

[neverdem]

The Shroud of Turin is much older than the medieval date that modern science has affixed to it and could be old enough to have been the burial wrapping of Jesus, a new analysis concludes.

Since 1988, most scientists have confidently concluded that it was the work of a medieval artist, because carbon dating had placed the production of the fabric between 1260 and 1390.

In an article this month in the journal Thermochimica Acta, Dr. Raymond N. Rogers, a chemist retired from Los Alamos National Laboratory, said the carbon dating test was valid but that the piece tested was about the size of a postage stamp and came from a portion that had been patched.

"We're darned sure that part of the cloth was not original Shroud of Turin cloth," he said, adding that threads from the main part of the shroud were pure linen, which is spun from flax.

The threads in the patched portion contained cotton as well and had been dyed to match.

From other tests, he estimated that the shroud was between 1,300 and 3,000 years old.

[grey_whiskers]

You know, the likes of you must belong to one of the "Club of Queer Trades," a book of detective stories written by GK Chesterton.

My favorite quote from The Club of Queer Trades:

Basil smiled at me. "You didn't know," he said, "that I had a practical brother. This is Rupert Grant, Esquire, who can and does all there is to be done. Just as I was a failure at one thing, he is a success at everything. I remember him as a journalist, a house-agent, a naturalist, an inventor, a publisher, a schoolmaster, a--what are you now, Rupert?"

"I am and have been for some time," said Rupert, with some dignity, "a private detective, and there's my client."

[grey_whiskers]

Well Mr. Doubting Thomas, how many men would have 700 wives and 300 concubines, as did King Solomon?

Can you imagine when they all got PMS at once?

I mean, holy cat fights, Batman!
No wonder one of the Proverbs says it is better to live alone in the corner of an attic than with a contentious woman! ;-)

[grey_whiskers]

Any competent medieval forger would have done as much.

Several questions to stir the pot:

1. Which competent medieval forgers do you know of--what is their name and their masterwork; and how was their forgery exposed? 2. Are you claiming that the forger of the Shroud knew about, or had access to, the Sudarium of Oviedo and the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano? 3. What is the date of origin of these relics compared to the time the Shroud was first 'announced' or 'discovered'? Implication is that the match in blood types was most likely coincidental, unless the alleged forger of the first relics had confederates or left instructions as to blood type of stains to be left on later, corroborating relics. 4. Did we have a medical genius from the Middle Ages who independently pioneered the concept of differentiating and categorizing human blood types, and who decided instead of using this knowledge to save lives, instead to use it to make specious Christian relics? Or--let's be fair--maybe he used his own blood on one relic and set aside samples of his own blood to use on later relics...but that would not account for the presence or composition of pleurual effluent mentioned on the Shroud in earlier posts; nor of the alleged preservation of the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano...

Cheers! PS Past my bedtime, bye-bye now.

[rwfromkansas]

Studies a couple years ago also showed the original carbon dating to be wrong.

It seems you have a bias here for some reason against the Shroud.

[LibertarianInExile]

I'm sure she's more persuasive to you, especially when you've a predetermined position on the issue. Rogers has been pushing the Shroud for years, and all it takes to prove his scientific predisposition here is a quick googling. The prominent use of 'peer reviewed' in so many rebuttals here should have tipped me off I'm in the midst of a pack of those who want it to be so, and want it so bad they are willing to overlook the experts that did the original work for a single one whose work is more than a little suspect.

[rwfromkansas]

And FYI, I am a Calvinist Prot. I don't care if the Shroud is legit.

But, I do care when scientists say it is fake when the evidence actually shows it was at least possibly contemporary with Christ.

[Ichneumon]

There are, in understanding what went wrong, important lessons that will ripple through archeology, anthropology, forensics and science lecture halls whenever and wherever carbon 14 dating is discussed.

Oh, puh-leaze..

Students will ask why a single sample from a suspect corner was used.

...because the "shroudies" were paranoid about damage to their "holy relic", and tried to limit the sample to as small and as least significant part possible -- which is not usually the case for most objects being radiocarbon dated, which is why your looooong rant about "important lessons rippling through yadda yadda" is way off base.

The only "lesson" here is for the shroudies to submit the cloth to closer and more thorough examination, enough to allow various types of proper analysis, instead of locking it away from researchers for decades at a time.

[Ichneumon]

The science is sound. His conclusions have passed the review process.

Exsqueeze me, but you're apparently quite ignorant of the scientific peer-review process. Getting past the editors of a publication is just THE FIRST hurdle. In order to actually "pass the review process", as you assert, it has to have been published and available for a while so that the scientific community can evaluate and comment on it, which has NOT BEEN DONE YET, since Roger's paper is just being published THIS MONTH -- and this is the most critical part of the review process.

So don't give us any of that stuff about how the "science is sound" because it has "passed the review process" it most certainly has not.

The C14 test samples were flawed and that invalidates the test.

You state this as a certainty, while there is still much debate on that topic. I know *you've* made up your mind, but don't present your opinion as if it were established fact.

While the test was accurate, it dated material that was added to the Shroud in about 1560 mixed with original shroud material.

Allegedly... Yes, I know you have reasons for coming to that conclusion -- but others have reasons for disagreeing.

The resulting test reports ranged OUTSIDE the degree of confidence...

Say what? Please clarify yourself here.

and those aberant results are explicable when 16th Century linen is mixed with original linen in the OBSERVED ratio

What "observed ratio" would that be? Surely you're not claiming to be able to know what proportion of which fibers of (alleged) different provenance went into *each* sliver taken from the samples for each 14C test? Manure.

ONLY if the original is of 1st Century Provenance.

Double manure. If you don't (and can't) know the actual proportions of (again, allegedly) different provenance threads in the actual 14C sample slivers (which is likely to *NOT* be the same as the proportion in the full sample swatch itself), then it's ludicrous to be able to make any such conclusion.

Furthermore, even Rogers seems to disagree with you, since he apparently has concluded that the "original" material can only be pinned down to a wide age range of 1700 or so years ("between 1,300 and 3,000"). So how exactly did *you* manage to pin it down to an exact century, hmm?

The lignin derivative vanillin tests are also sound... It is based on observed vanllin content in fabrics of known provenances and is quite accurate in dating linen and cotten fabrics up to 1300 years old. Medieval linen (c 600 years old) tests positive for vanillin as do all other plant based fabrics of similar age... but fabrics that are older than 1300 years do not. The ORIGINAL Shroud threads test negative for vanillin... ergo, they are older than 1300 years.

As Paul Harvey would say, "...and here's the *rest* of the story..."

You try to make it sound as if "lignin derivative vanillin tests" are some sort of established dating methods for dating fabrics. THEY ARE NOT.

They're something that ROGERS HIMSELF came up with recently in order to try to date the shroud specifically, and relies on a number of very shaky assumptions. IT HAS NOT BEEN ACCEPTED BY THE SCIENTIFIC OR ARCHAEOLOGICAL COMMUNITY. I'm not even sure they've had a chance to consider it yet.

You claim that "Medieval linen" tests positive by this test, "as do all other plant based fabrics of similar age" -- um, really? When exactly did you or Rogers find the time to test "all other plant based fabrics of similar age"? You must have been busy beavers...

In point of fact, Rogers has only tried this "test" on only a few other samples (I can only find a grand total of *five* mentioned in his paper), far too few to establish that it is actually in any way statistically accurate. So why are you making false, overblown claims about it?

And if the shroudies have such a good case, as they always claim, why do they keep having to overstate it?

Finally, I caught Rogers using a bit of "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" during his paper. In the section where he attempts to make the vanillin test sound more reliable than it is, he states:

The fire of 1532 could not have greatly affected the vanillin content of lignin in all parts of the shroud equally. The thermal conductivity of linen is very low, 2.1×10-4 cal cm-1 s-1 C-1; therefore, the unscorched parts of the folded cloth could not have become very hot.

This has *two* (non)scientific howlers.

The first is that it's a straw man fallacy to assert that the fire of 1532 would not have affected the vanillin content "in all parts of the shroud equally". Rogers is either an idiot or a huckster here, since the fire would not have had to affect all parts "equally", it would only have to have affected all parts *sufficiently* (even if at DIFFERENT rates) to degrade the lignin, since Rogers's "vanillin test" is based on NOT being able to detect any vanillin due to its quantities being too small for his reagant to signal. So his mumbling about "well, the fire wouldn't have affected all of the vanillin *equally*..." is a complete red herring, and tries to get the reader to think, "yeah, it wouldn't be *equally* affected, so gosh, he must be onto something here..." Hogwash.

The even bigger howler is when he blathers on about the "thermal conductivity of linen", as if that's the only or the limiting factor for how much heat could have reached the inner parts of the cloth during the fire it was in. This is, to be blunt, ludicrous. It's the sort of mistake a poor high school student might make. Heat travels by *three* methods, and conductivity in non-metal materials is usually the *least* effective method. At the very least, Rogers should consider how much heat could have entered the cloth through AIR CONVECTION, which is how heat from a fire is usually spread. In short, hot air (part of the shroud was ON FIRE at the time) spreads and heats other nearby materials it passes through/over. For Rogers to just mumble about "low thermal conductivity" in linen, as if the only way a piece of cloth ON FIRE could have other parts of it heated is by having the heat directly conducted along the lengths of the fibers themselves, like a spoon handle eventually getting hot while the other end of it rests in the soup bowl...

Sheesh.

And Rogers entire "test" is based on the assumption that his (untested) model of vanillin leeching out of the linen has is valid under all conditions. I see nothing in his paper which attempts to deal with the fact that vanillin changes from a solid crystal to a liquid at about 82 degrees C. (180-ish F.), temperatures easily reached in proximity to a fire -- might this hasten or otherwise affect the vanillin loss? Rogers doesn't even *attempt* to examine that question.

Is this the type of "science" we should expect from shroud "researchers"? Making up their own "tests" when they don't like the results of more established tests -- and doing it in a really shoddy manner?

[Wonder Warthog]

"Only counterexample or difficulty off the top of my head with that, would be if (say) you had 1st or 2nd century hand-me down bare cloth, with pigment or whatever dating from 1200 or so. Depending on the exact ration of pigment to cloth fibers used to do the sample, you might get all sorts of ages out."

Ah, but with the AMS technique, they can bombard the sample with an electron beam to do a depth profile, sputtering off successive layers. They can then compensate for exactly that problem.

[Swordmaker]

Exsqueeze me, but you're apparently quite ignorant of the scientific peer-review process. Getting past the editors of a publication is just THE FIRST hurdle. In order to actually "pass the review process", as you assert, it has to have been published and available for a while so that the scientific community can evaluate and comment on it, which has NOT BEEN DONE YET, since Roger's paper is just being published THIS MONTH -- and this is the most critical part of the review process.

The research was submitted for peer review in APRIL. It was vetted and underwent some changes in response to criticism from other chemists. It was finally published in January. It will be criticized by a wider audience.

You state this as a certainty, while there is still much debate on that topic. I know *you've* made up your mind, but don't present your opinion as if it were established fact.

It is a certainty that the sample that was burned in the C14 tests is not exemplar of the main body of the shroud. If it is not exemplar then the specific test results of that sample cannot be generalized to the main body of the shroud. That invalidates the test. This would not have occured had not a last minute dumping of the agreed protocols which called for seven sample to be taken from seven areas including image, scorch, and non-image areas, not happened. The area where the 1988 sample was taken was an area where it was agreed the SAMPLE SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN because of problems with non-similarity with the rest of the Shroud. On glaring difference was the differences in florescence of that area compared to the rest of the Shroud.

Allegedly... Yes, I know you have reasons for coming to that conclusion -- but others have reasons for disagreeing.

Please provide their reasoning. How can they generalize a test result from a non-exemplar sample to a the thing it is not similar to? The 1988 tests demonstrated a degree of scientific sloppiness that should not have happened.

". . . OUTSIDE the degree of confidence..."

Say what? Please clarify yourself here.

The 1988 sample was cut into five parts (IIRC). Two of the labs got one part and the Arizona lab got two. The reported dates from the three labs' testing of the four samples ranged from 1260 to 1390 AD with a degree of confidence of plus or minus 25 years. Instead, the four samples produced dates that did NOT fall within the 50 year range... they range over 120 years. The "youngest" and "oldest" do not even overlap in their confidence ranges, in fact, they fail to overlap by an astonishing 80 years! For sub-samples cut from the same sample this is FAR TO GREAT. This should have been a red flag.

It is especially interesting that the youngest and oldest were the two samples that were sent to the same lab... the Arizona lab... which has the reputation of being the most accurate. The youngest and oldest were taken from the two opposite ends of the original sample wtih the other two in between. the next youngest was located next to the youngest and the next oldest was located next to the oldest. In other words, as the cloth got closer to the main body of the shroud, the reported ages got older and older.

What "observed ratio" would that be? Surely you're not claiming to be able to know what proportion of which fibers of (alleged) different provenance went into *each* sliver taken from the samples for each 14C test? Manure.

Actually, you can. Photomicrographs were taken of the sample that was taken and of each sub-sample. ALthough not examined at the time for anomolies, they can be seen today. There is a bifurcation of "old" to "new" fibers running lengthwise through the sample at a slight diagonal bias where the "invisible" reweaving intertwined threads with cotton intermixed in the linen fibers with the original threads with no cotton intermixed. In addition, it is these new fibers that show a differeing "fullering" method than is seen on the rest of the shroud. The percentage of "new" fiber is greater in the "younger" sample end (estimated at about 60% new) and lesser in the "older: sample end (about 40%).

Double manure. If you don't (and can't) know the actual proportions of (again, allegedly) different provenance threads in the actual 14C sample slivers (which is likely to *NOT* be the same as the proportion in the full sample swatch itself), then it's ludicrous to be able to make any such conclusion.

Since we CAN KNOW the approximate proportions of the mixed materials, it is possible to calculate the approximate age of the original fibers if one knows an approximate date for the new material. IIRD it was Harry Gove, the inventor of the C14 dating method, who was asked to do the calculations. My recollection is that the results were 1st Century with a degree of confidence of plus or minus 100 years. The much high than normal range is due to the estimates of the proportions and the estimate for when the repair was done.

Gove also agreed that the C14 tests were invalid because of the non-exemplar nature of the samples.

Furthermore, even Rogers seems to disagree with you, since he apparently has concluded that the "original" material can only be pinned down to a wide age range of 1700 or so years ("between 1,300 and 3,000"). So how exactly did *you* manage to pin it down to an exact century, hmm?

Rogers Lignin/Vanillin test works only on samples younger than 1300 years because at that date the vanillin is essentially undetectable and can provide no information beyond that. I believe he selected the 3000 as an outer range because that is about how old similar cloths have been found preserved.

At the very least, Rogers should consider how much heat could have entered the cloth through AIR CONVECTION, which is how heat from a fire is usually spread. In short, hot air (part of the shroud was ON FIRE at the time) spreads and heats other nearby materials it passes through/over. For Rogers to just mumble about "low thermal conductivity" in linen, as if the only way a piece of cloth ON FIRE could have other parts of it heated is by having the heat directly conducted along the lengths of the fibers themselves, like a spoon handle eventually getting hot while the other end of it rests in the soup bowl...

IChneumon, Linen degrades rapidly in the presence of heat, whether conducted through the fibers or convected by the air... and it changes color. Rogers is quite familiar with the transfer of heat... he is a Pyrolosis Chemist. However the heat is applied to the linen, it would have done so in a non-homogeneous manner. Some areas of the shroud were reduced to ash, other merely discolored and most of the rest apparently unaffected. The test for the vanillin reaction was negative in all parts of the shroud except for the C14 sample area. This alone shows that the sampled area is not exemplar of the body of the shroud.

And Rogers entire "test" is based on the assumption that his (untested) model of vanillin leeching out of the linen has is valid under all conditions. I see nothing in his paper which attempts to deal with the fact that vanillin changes from a solid crystal to a liquid at about 82 degrees C. (180-ish F.), temperatures easily reached in proximity to a fire -- might this hasten or otherwise affect the vanillin loss? Rogers doesn't even *attempt* to examine that question.

Actually it has. Independent test of linen being heated and even burned were undertaken. I cannot find the article right now, but I recall reading it about six months ago.

[Swordmaker]

The statement that it can't be reproduced is absurd. Artists make three dimensional drawings all the time. AB blood and body fluids still exist.

Numerous people have tried... none have even come close.

[Swordmaker]

You really believe this, that a tiny tiny patch picked out by a Bishop from a huge piece of cloth was an accident? Sorry I am not buying that.

Good, you shouldn't because it wasn't an accident. The area sampled was adjacent to an area that had already been sampled. After unilaterally rejecting the agreed upon protocols which called for seven samples from all areas of the shroud, the custodian of the Shroud decided that the least amount of damage would be done by cutting more from an area that had already been cut.

If anything, it was through a misguided zeal to protect the Shroud that has caused all this fuss.

[PatrickHenry]

I have neckties older than the Shroud.

[Northern Yankee]

You're right...

I was unfair to bring up the Un-Christian comment. My humble apologies.

You may be right. This may not be the shroud of Jesus. But if it is... Let's just suppose that maybe the carbon dating was wrong; and that they did take the sample from the wrong piece of the cloth, wouldn't it be something to think that this truly was the shroud that covered Jesus? what an amazing thing to be able to see the face of God.

God Bless!

[shroudie]

Perfect response!

[Aquinasfan]

Any competent medieval forger would have done as much.

How?

Where are the other forgeries?

[Aquinasfan]

Do you really expect the scoffers of Christ to repent, if "science" declares it to be the real deal.

Not all, but some. Many skeptical scientists who've studied the Shroud have converted. And just one conversion would make the study of the Shroud worth it, wouldn't it?

Will the Catholic Church change it stance about the old Testament not being history but a bunch of allegory, I won't be holding my breath.

Well, hold your breath no more. The Catholic Church has never taught "the old Testament not being history but a bunch of allegory."

Catholic biblical exegesis.

[Aquinasfan]

It's about tangible proof of an intangible deity.

Jesus was intangible?

[Matchett-PI]

Correction: "Many more [superstitious] visitors are expected when it next goes on show in 2025."

[Aquinasfan]

Somehow that's supposed to make this fake relic...

You've obviously devoted several minutes to studying the Shroud so, as an expert, I'd appreciate it if you could explain to me how the forger matched the blood type (AB) on the Shroud to the Sudarium of Oviedo and the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano, considering that type AB blood occurs in 3% of the population, and that a medieval forger did not know of the existence of blood types.

And while you're at it, maybe you could explain to us how the medieval forger created his forgery?